This is a complete and accurate transcript of the tape of the oral history interview of [the World Christian Fellowship president] (Collection 514, T58) in the Archives of the Billy Graham Center. No spoken words have been omitted. In a very few cases, the transcribers could not understand what was said, in which case "[unclear]" was inserted. Also, grunts and verbal hesitations such as "ah" or "um" were usually omitted. Readers of this transcript should remember that this is a transcript of spoken English, which follows a different rhythm and even rule than written English.
. . . Three dots indicate an interruption or break in the train of thought within the sentence of the speaker.
. . . . Four dots indicate what the transcriber believes to be the end of an incomplete sentence.
( ) Word in parentheses are asides made by the speaker.
[ ] Words in brackets are comments made by the transcriber.
This transcript was completed by Paul. A. Ericksen, Nathan Hollenbeck, Evans Ochala, and Zingrin Shishak in December 1999.
Collection 514, T58. Interview of [the World Christian Fellowship president] by Paul A. Ericksen on March 27, 1995.
ERICKSEN: This is an oral history interview of [the World Christian Fellowship president] by Paul Ericksen for the Archives of the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College. This interview took place at 11:15 a.m. on March 27, 1995, at the office of the Archives of the Billy Graham Center. [recorder turned off and restarted] Well, Matt, to begin with, could you give me your full name, birth date and birth place?
INTERVIEWEE: My name is [name omitted]. I was born on October 31, 1972, in Siloam Springs, Arkansas.
ERICKSEN: And can you tell me the names of parents and any brothers and sisters?
INTERVIEWEE: My father's name is [name omitted] and my mother's name is [name omitted]. And I have one full sister and her name is Andrea. She's sixteen now.
ERICKSEN: Okay. When did you come to faith in Christ?
INTERVIEWEE: When I was fourteen years old I was...became a Christian through the prayers of my great grandparents and my grandparents. My parents hadn't [pauses] at that point been Christians.
ERICKSEN: And how did...how did that come about?
INTERVIEWEE: That came about through an invitation from my great grandmother to attend a church different than the one I was attending previously and I ended up getting involved with the youth group there. And later I went with that youth group to an Urbana conference, which was not the Urbana conference that you're used to hearing about. It was a Wesleyan conference held at Urbana, Illinois. And there were seven thousand or so youth there. This was in 1986. And at the call of the last night I went forward, but God had been working in my life in...in...intricate ways previous to that, which made that night...made me ready that night to give my life to Christ.
ERICKSEN: So it sounds like your grandparents were part of a Wesleyan Church?
ERICKSEN: And it sounds like your parents maybe were church-goers....
INTERVIEWEE: Exactly. They were church-goers for a while. It's interesting that after I became a Christian that faded from their lives entirely. But they did respect my faith.
ERICKSEN: Yeah. What kind of [pauses] tradition was it?
INTERVIEWEE: Actually growing up with my parents going through different things and struggles and I've...a few different divorces I have been through, I've actually spent two years in a Presbyterian church, two years in a Lutheran church, a year in a Assembly of God church. So I've had quite the gamut.
INTERVIEWEE: But most...most of my years have been in the Wesleyan Church.
ERICKSEN: Okay. And what would you say have been significant milestones in your spiritual pilgrimage since coming to faith in Christ?
INTERVIEWEE: The first milestone that comes to mind is growing up in a home with a single parent, and the [pauses] more difficult circumstances that that brought into my life. When I was fourteen years old was when I became a Christian. It was also a period when my mother was not married. So just the idea of having a very dysfunctional home with dysfunctional things that [pauses] you can imagine for yourself, but made it very difficult for me having to be more a parent sometimes than a kid. And having to learn to depend on Christ very early. That's a milestone even though is not something you can put a date to. Really growing in my faith, really digging into my Bible, really learning to pray for long hours at a very early age. When I graduated from high school I took a year off, even though I had a full-ride scholarship offered to me at a university of my choice, at the university in my home town because I didn't know where God was leading me. So I took a year to pray, to work and think and finally ended up coming to Wheaton.
ERICKSEN: And what was it about Wheaton that...?
INTERVIEWEE: Wheaton...when I finally figured out that, yes, in...I...indeed I did I need Christian education if I was going to pursue where I felt the Lord was leading me in my ministry, I simply opened up a Christian catalog of...of Christian colleges and it didn't take...it wasn't any question at all after looking at the options that Wheaton was the place I wanted to go. What was it about Wheaton? Wheaton's academic strength and its spiritual commitment combined are what drew me here.
ERICKSEN: [adjacent storage room door opens and closes] Okay. And you're a senior now, right?
INTERVIEWEE: No, I am a junior.
INTERVIEWEE: But I did take a year off, so....
INTERVIEWEE: I'm also in the accelerated MA program here [at Wheaton College's Graduate School], which means I'll be here two more years, total of five years.
ERICKSEN: Okay. Alright. Well, the occasion for our getting together is to talk about the things that happened...began happening last week. What...what kind of things led up to what started Sun...Sunday night a week ago?
INTERVIEWEE: Well, I'm glad you asked that question because that's just exactly what I wanted to tell you. I feel like a number of things led up to the revival that happened last week. First, I want to say that the prayers of alumni, and the prayers of concerned students here on campus for the past years and this year especially ha...are what led up to the revival. I happen to know of communities of students within the campus who have been meeting to pray often for revival for years. I myself since I arrived at campus have not necessarily been praying for quote, revival, or anything that I...that turned out to look like this last week, but I have been praying weekly and daily that God would move in a powerful way on our campus ever since I arrived. Not only myself but others have been fasting weekly, praying specifically for our campus that God would do two things: one, bring revival, and two, raise up workers for the Great Commission and for the harvest.
ERICKSEN: Now you mentioned that alumni had been praying. How aware of that were you prior to all of this opening up last week?
INTERVIEWEE: That's actually...I wasn't that aware of it. I've been more aware of that this week as I've been talking to people who have been saying, "I've have been praying for this for years." Basically before that my perspective was more short term, you know, what I knew about my friends and me praying. I...I devoted one day a week this year to fasting a couple meals just for this purpose. But it's...like I said, it's...it's really not just me. It's a ton of students.
ERICKSEN: Okay. So prayer has been a significant precursor to what happened. Other things?
MATTHEW: I would say other than that, no, that I know of, except the providence of God.
ERICKSEN: Uh-huh. Now, it's interesting. You mentioned one of the reasons you came to Wheaton was its spiritual environment.
ERICKSEN: And yet, from what you said, as soon as you got here you began praying [pauses] for it to change.
INTERVIEWEE: I guess what I meant was when I looked at the catalog and when I visited Wheaton, Wheaton offered the best that there was in my mind for me to get an education that would...would be academically solid and also for me to be in an environment that was spiritually edifying. So I...I saw a lot of good from the beginning. I'm not one of those...I'm not a person who [pauses] sees a lot of bad at Wheaton to start with. But I think spiritual revival is something that [pauses] we...we can never say we don't need.
ERICKSEN: Right. Okay. Could you briefly describe what went into getting the fellows [actually one female and one male student] up from Howard Payne?
INTERVIEWEE: Sure. Let me talk to you about what Charles Finney calls a converging of providences, Charles Finney being that great revivalist preacher of the last century. [pauses] I had just finished a course with Dr. [pauses] [Timothy] Beougher in...in the MA department in evangelism, a course entitled "History and Theology of Revival." And on the last day of that course, which was the [pauses]...the Thursday before the...the first quad, A quad, ended this spring, so that would have been just a few weeks ago, right before spring break, there was kind of an excitement in class, because we had heard about the revival that had happened at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary as a redul...result of some Howard Payne students coming by and giving their testimony of how God had worked on their campus. Students had faxes in their hands from friends. Dr. Beougher was excited because it was his alma mater, and he had already got a call from a friend. So that brought kind of an exciting conclusion to our class, a practical and a real life experience that we could look at after studying the history and theology of revivals. During that class period, Dr. Beougher turned to me and he said, "Matt, not to put any pressure on you, but you're the chair of WCF [World Christian Fellowship, a Wheaton College group which meets Sunday evenings throughout the school year for worship, prayer, and presentations intended to stimulate commitment to missions and evangelism] this year, and," he said, "I feel like WCF is one of the most spiritually sensitive places on campus. And I feel like there are students there who would be very receptive to hearing the testimony of something like this." He said, "If you are willing or would like to, I just want you to know, I'd be willing to back. flying a couple of students up here." So that was one providence that I felt converging. At that point I [pauses] took what he said to the cabinet of WCF, because we plan our meetings months in...ahead of time, and our speakers months in...ahead of time. I also invited him last minute on the telephone on his voice mail during our meeting. It's unusual that he was able to show up during our meeting. [Ericksen laughs] He said he just heard it on the way out the door and so he came over. [He] walked in just as we were [pauses] discussing whether or not to do this, and I was happy he was there because he was able to give them a better understanding of...of the history and why this could be a great thing. At any rate, the WCF cabinet decided by the end of the meeting to more or less postpone our plans for the nineteenth of March to another time later this semester and have these students come up if possible. [whispers something inaudible, rustling of papers] A second converging of providences that I saw just from my own perspective was that over spring break for that class I had a responsibility of reading a five hundred page book by Charles Finney called Revivals of [laughs] Lec...or Lectures on Revival. I didn't realize...have any idea at that point what was coming down the pike, but I was sure int...I mean.... So during spring break you can imagine the thoughts that were going through my mind and all of the things that I was thinking about. It certainly was...seemed like another converging of providence that I had to go through all that training at that point, as far as what to do during a revival, stuff like that. When we came back...during spring break, let me say, Kevin Engel, who is the...currently the Assistant Director in the Office of Christian Outreach, had...he is my advisor for the ministry.
INTERVIEWEE: And it's important that everything that I do and that the cabinet decides that has an effect on campus, that he be involved in. And so we have a close working relationship as well as a good friendship. He has...was very very open. He talked to Tim Beougher about...about what this stuff was really all about, since he didn't know a lot about the history and theology of revival, but he was open to our cabinet's decision, and he helped to facilitate us. If that hadn't happened, we would have not been able to invite the students. That there is another converging of providence, because that's somewhat of a risky business for an administrator to do what he did. That was something, I think, is very praiseworthy of Kevin Engel to...to take a step of faith like he did. When...during spring break, Kevin Engel and I then, after the final decision had been made to at least try to invite the Howard Payne students, we had to do some long distance phone calling. I was on the East Coast visiting my grandparents. He was on the West Coast visiting his family and his grandparents. And the students themselves were in Texas on spring break. [Ericksen laughs] So we had to coordinate a lot of stuff over the phone during our own spring breaks, but...including air fare and that kind of thing. Ended up that it was a go [idiom meaning that plans were working out and moving forward], so the students were coming. So when we came back we knew that they were coming and we had one week to prepare for the evening of WCF on that Sunday night. So that's...that's more of my perspective of the converging of providences.
INTERVIEWEE: I...I...one thing that Charles Finney says in his book throughout is that people who are really spiritually sensitive and who are praying that God would do a big work oftentimes see it coming before it happens. And I'm not saying that I saw what happened coming but I will say that I did have certain expectation of God moving in a big way. And I know that I'm not the only one because the entire cabinet was praying with a sense of God is getting ready to do something big. We didn't know what. We certainly didn't want to program it, but we wanted to be open to whatever God had for us.
ERICKSEN: Now what are the names of the two fellows or...? I don't know. Maybe it was two women. I...I don't know who came up from Howard Payne.
INTERVIEWEE: Okay. Brandi Mcguire is a junior from Howard Payne and James Hahn is a senior from Howard Payne this year.
INTERVIEWEE: And I had...we had the privilege of spending some nice time with them while they were here. They stayed with us students.
ERICKSEN: Now, how much of...well.... (I'm trying to think of which night it was. I think it was...was it Thursday night when either you or Kevin [Engel] read Nathaniel's [Fawcett] notes for the Sunday evening...
ERICKSEN: ... service?
ERICKSEN: How open-ended was that or how developed was the program before you talked to Howard Payne guys?
INTERVIEWEE: When the Howard Payne students arrived we had never spoken with them ever. We had only spoken with a pastor at the church that they attend, who had basically told them that they were coming up here. [Ericksen laughs] He said, "This a great thing that I think God wants you to do." Both of them had horrendous Spring breaks. That was their Spring break and both of them had already been flying and driving all over the place due to people asking them to come and speak. They both were reluctant but realized in the end that it was God's will. They weren't both reluctant but they were both exhausted. [pauses] What was the question again?
ERICKSEN: How much of the...the evening program was open-ended at the point that they arrived?
INTERVIEWEE: Okay. At the point that they arrived, if you...if you could find somewhere in the Archives a copy of the agenda or the tape (I don't think it's on the tape, actually), but a copy of that particular WCF agenda, you'll see that Nate had said (Nate being the worship leader for the evening...
INTERVIEWEE: ...and the one responsible for writing that agenda)...he had said...I can't repeat it verbatim....
ERICKSEN: Sure. No, we've got recording of that on the radio broadcasts, so.... [this was a mistaken impression] Yeah.
INTERVIEWEE: Okay, that's right. So then you can find that and you can...you can listen to that. How open-ended was the evening in our minds?
ERICKSEN: Well, I'm...I'm just wondering how much the program maybe was more defined after you actually met with the Howard Payne students...
ERICKSEN: ...and talked to them about what they envisioned for the evening.
INTERVIEWEE: It wasn't any more defined. I...
INTERVIEWEE: ...guess the greatest definition for the evening and really the definition that all of us had from beginning was open-mindedness to the Spirit of God. As the agenda says, "We have no intention of trying to recreate a revival that happened somewhere else."
INTERVIEWEE: "We have no specific way in which we desire to see God move." I'm not sure that...I mean, I will say we all wanted to see God move. And I will say that the openness that we actually planned in our minds for the evening and you can see it on the agenda, there's a question mark down there for the time of testimonies afterwards. Kevin Engel confessed sort of jokingly after the events of last week that he said, privately I think, to Nate, you know, "If the Lord decides to move in a big way, we'll let there be between ten and thirty minutes of testimonies." [Ericksen laughs] And he said, "I felt like the man of little faith." But he is actually a man of great faith, to be so open to the Spirit of God.
ERICKSEN: Now, in...it's interesting.... One observation that I had (I was there Wednesday night and Thursday night)...I, you know...from watching the dynamics I would have not guessed that he was not very much a part of what was happening all the way through. And it sounds like, you know, you had to meet with him. Not that he was resistant to it.
INTERVIEWEE: Kevin Engel is responsible to the College for what my cabinet does and therefore he's...he's an important player...
INTERVIEWEE: ...in this whole event and I just see that the...I see the Lord has used him greatly in having great faith to be open to very unusual things. Being open to WCF [World Christian Fellowship, Wheaton College group which meets regularly on Sunday evenings for worship, prayer and instruction about missions] for instance, that doesn't cut off at 8:45. Being open to the possibility that God might want to move when all seven or eight of us cabinet members felt that that's where God was leading towards more openness in that area. We just all sensed the Spirit of God leading in that way. So him being willing to step back and say, "Agendas aside, let's let God show us that maybe a two-month-ahead-of-time planned agenda is not the only way He works," you know.
ERICKSEN: Well, it's interesting, too, a fellow that works here in the office, Mark Congdon, wrote an article in The Record [Wheaton College student newspaper] that had something to with "God doesn't work," you know, "through date books necessarily." [unidentified sound] That...that was just an aside.
INTERVIEWEE: That's a good aside.
ERICKSEN: From what you've heard about of what happened of Howard Payne [University] and what you saw happened here, how do two compare?
INTERVIEWEE: Well, when James Hahn...he stayed with me in my room and that was a privilege and a pleasure. When he left he was in a hurry. He was packing his bags and he said, "Matt, can you dictate something to the students for me?" as he was packing. And I said yes. So I was dictating. He wrote a three page letter to the students that I read to them on Monday night. One thing that he said that was very important was that he and Brandy, although they had been all over Texas and had seen God work and bring churches and schools to revival because of simply the Spirit of God moving through them and their words, he said, "We've never seen anything like this. We've never seen the Spirit of God move this powerfully or in this big of a way" and also he...one thing he wanted me to be sure to communicate to the students who came back the next night was that this was a work that was unique to Wheaton, a work of God that was unique to Wheaton. And so....
INTERVIEWEE: He...another thing he said was that this is not the Howard Payne Revival brought to Wheaton. He made that clear in his letter. He said, "This is something that's special," so....
ERICKSEN: Now on Sunday night...
ERICKSEN: ...when you opened up the mikes, when did you for yourself feel that you were switching from a "I want God to move" to realizing that God was moving?
INTERVIEWEE: Well, I really do have to confess to you, Paul, that the cabinet and myself and Kevin Engel were actually much more open than anybody knows to the Spirit of God moving. I've already said it in this interview but I will say it again. We were actually even more open to really not getting into God's way. So we were prepared in that sense mentally for what might have happen, a long time event, even though we did not force it. When...what...I think the realization came slowly but as students did begin to confess sin, and we...we opened the mikes to not just the confession of sins but questions for Brandy and James...
INTERVIEWEE: ...prayers, [door closes in adjacent room] testimonies, reading of Scriptures, but what started was confession of sin. Students had been pricked to the heart. And they were pricked because of their sin. So what started was confession of sin. And what's been said all week by administrators and faculty and students is that this...this is a genuine work of God. And the reason they know it they say is because that there's no way you can manufacture such deep brokenness, repentance and such getting right with God, you know, repentance of really students who were really hardened and whose RA's had been struggling for weeks, months and years with people who were rebellious. Anyway as the evening proceeded and the spirit of the testimonies became so genuine and students' lives became so transformed, I think that's (even though I am not the one who realized it), I think more or less those in charge realized that [pauses] something deep and powerful was happening. Does that make sense?
ERICKSEN: Uh-hmm. I think so.
INTERVIEWEE: When...because WCF can't manufacture students getting right with God.
INTERVIEWEE: That's just not possible. Only the Spirit of God can manufacture [pauses] conviction and repentance. And that's what was happening student after student after student, and the...as you've heard already lined up thirty students on each side of the auditorium waiting to speak, each one usu...not each one but nearly every one with a testimony of a similar type of brokenness and repentance and "Please help me," and "I want to repent in front of you all and in front of God. I want prayer and I want to change and I want my life to change." That's not manufactured. It just simply isn't, especially at Wheaton. [door in adjacent room closes]
ERICKSEN: Why do you say especially at Wheaton?
INTERVIEWEE: Because it.... Well I'm...I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that, except that I've heard that phrase used so much. All I meant by that was that students here are the kind of students who are always asking the question you just asked. Was it manufactured or was it legitimate? Because student here don't really go for manufactured events. Like a manufactured revival meeting is...is...is the type of thing that students and faculty alike at Wheaton cringe at, just naturally, and I can't explain why. At least that's my personal impression.
ERICKSEN: Uh-hmm. Well, that's all we're...
ERICKSEN: ...looking for.
ERICKSEN: Now the meeting was in Pierce [Chapel] as is your...your...
ERICKSEN: ...usual WCF meetings.
ERICKSEN: What's your guess on how many students were there?
INTERVIEWEE: Well, we had about a normal meeting for this year.
INTERVIEWEE: This year our number has been around five hundred.
INTERVIEWEE: So I would guess that we had...but because of the special nature of the events of that evening and because I had written a letter to the leadership of WCF earlier that week.... (There's fifty members...there's fifty people who helped to lead the various ministries of WCF every week and so it's a large and a broader ministry than you just see on Sunday night. There are prayer groups, etc.) I had written them about who was coming and just asked them to be in special prayer, fasting and self-searching this week, because of our expectation and prayer that God will move in our midst. And I also asked them to invite a friend. I think that things like that may have increased expectation on campus. So may...so there may have been a few more. But there weren't many more than five hundred there.
ERICKSEN: Okay. And in terms of physically occupying the space what is five hundred work out to? Is that whole...?
INTERVIEWEE: No. Five hundred people...there's...I think Pierce Auditorium is supposed to hold eight or nine hundred people.
INTERVIEWEE: But students generally...what...what it looked like was the bottom floor of Pierce was basically full but not ka...not packed which is a normal WCF and then there was a scattering of students throughout the balcony...balconies which is basically how our meetings have been looking all year.
INTERVIEWEE: Definitely not full in the balcony.
ERICKSEN: Okay. Now I noticed last night at your meeting that a few of you were sitting off to the right side and I think a few were sitting off to the left I don't know who was sitting in the middle. Where were you sitting during that meeting?
ERICKSEN: Were you up on stage or were you down...?
INTERVIEWEE: During the...the nineteenth?
ERICKSEN: Yeah. Yes.
INTERVIEWEE: Okay. I would have...I don't remember precisely where I was sitting.
ERICKSEN: I'm not worried about which seat but I'm wondering whether you were sitting in one of the pews or whether you were up on the stage.
INTERVIEWEE: Well, I...I had a leadership role on that evening so I would have been in one of front rows and I would have been giving...I probably...no, I did give announcements that evening, which was our routine announcements about opportunities after the meeting is over to go the back table and get literature about this and that opportunity for missions, etcetera. There would have been other announcements that I gave. We probably have the first part of the evening on tape somewhere, video and audio [Collection 514 V1/V2].
INTERVIEWEE: In fact I'm sure we do. I know that it was turned off at the time of the testimonies.
ERICKSEN: Now who...I'm just curious. Who makes that decision at WCF?
INTERVIEWEE: Who makes that decision?
ERICKSEN: Yeah, or is that policy?
ERICKSEN: Of course it hadn't happened before.
INTERVIEWEE: It hadn't happened before. But I was told by the guy who was video taping that he just felt led [laughs] to turn it off...
INTERVIEWEE: ...at that time and I think that the person running the tape probably felt the same. At any rate we haven't listened to the tapes yet. Usually we make them available to students 'cause students like to copy off tapes of WCF evenings for their own use. We haven't fully listened to those yet 'cause we've been so busy. But when we do we'll...we'll be sure that there aren't any testimonies and then we'll make those available, just because of wanting to protect students who...
INTERVIEWEE: ...confess sin. What was the question?
ERICKSEN: Well...I was...I was asking about where you were sitting. Part of what I was interested in is what you were ob...if you were able to observe the students who were sitting in...
ERICKSEN: ...Pierce as [pauses]...
ERICKSEN: ...the confessions began.
INTERVIEWEE: Oh, as the confessions began?
ERICKSEN: Or even before!
INTERVIEWEE: Well, let me tell you. I gave announcements. You've got to keep in mind the format of WCF. WCF format consistently is starting out with twenty minutes of worship and praise to God, some announcements, then usually maybe a couple more songs, maybe not, introduction of speaker and then the speaker. Then some more songs, reflective time afterwards: "What does that mean for me God?" Okay? "What does that mean? What are you telling to me?" So once we got to the speakers and I believe it was me who introduced them, although I actually can't remember at this point.... [pauses] I need to tell you that when Brandy and James got up the Spirit of God was so heavy upon my...my own self as they were speaking, even though I was con...being one of the leaders I was concerned about what was going own and what was happening next, the Spirit of God was so powerfully present and evident as they spoke and so convicting that I myself was convicted of sin. And [pauses]...it's as if...I mean, I...I wasn't looking around. I...I can move an... I can move and tell you what it was like after that, but I'm just telling you that at that point it was a powerful time. You could hear a pin drop. And they spoke with authority. They spoke with [pauses]...it wasn't quite the same as talking with them off stage. Off stage they're congenial, you know, and...and....
ERICKSEN: Now when you say they spoke with authority, what...what comes to mind is the way that that was conveyed?
INTERVIEWEE: Basically just [pauses]...I really can't describe it I guess. All I mean is that what...what the...what the things they were speaking, the stories they were telling of how God had moved at Howard Payne were so gripping, that you really couldn't think about anything else. They told stories of confession, of students getting right with God, of what powerful impact God had had on other peoples lives and...the stories were so real-life, so [pauses]...pertinent to us as a community, that we had to listen.
ERICKSEN: Okay. What about as the evening progressed? What did you observe about students? [door in adjacent room opens]
INTERVIEWEE: Well, you've had...I hope you've had testimony already from students or you will have testimony [door in adjacent room closes] of the general pattern of the evenings, which was students would line up on both sides to testify at the open mikes, "I'm sorry," to...to confess.
ERICKSEN: And this would have been the center, the two center aisles?
INTERVIEWEE: There aren't two center aisles. There's one center aisle.
ERICKSEN: I'm sorry. There's the...
ERICKSEN: ...there's the big main section...
ERICKSEN: ...and then the two aisles...
ERICKSEN: ...that come off of that, and I think they're aisles way out on the outside, too.
INTERVIEWEE: Actually in Pierce there's one middle aisle and two outer aisles.
INTERVIEWEE: That's it. There's only two main sections of seats. [pauses] The microphones were placed right near the stage at the end of the front or at the end of the side aisles, okay? At the front of the side aisles. Actually a little bit closer in towards the middle.
INTERVIEWEE: [pauses] As the evening progressed, what we saw were students lined up thirty...twenty to thirty deep on both sides, waiting to repent, ask forgiveness, confess sins. [pauses] The meeting took on not a...not a disorganized or a chaotic look, but it did take on a very informal look.
INTERVIEWEE: What I mean by that is [door in adjacent room closes], after every student pr...would confess, there would be anywhere from five to twenty to thirty people, depending on the nature of the confession or the person who confessed, who would rush forward, take the student aside somewhere and pray for that student. So it's hard to have a formal meeting when that's going on. So what you've got is you've got at that point pews with so many students praying all over the building, in the basement. You've got students praying...you've got students praying right up front so that you can't hardly see the person who's testifying sometimes, even though it's quiet praying most of the time. You've got students praying down the aisle. A group of five or ten or twenty students will be praying for someone. But what that caused was that in the pews themselves there were...there would be a scattering of students because so many were involved with the praying and the healing that was going on that you didn't have a formal meeting any more. You had students here and there. You know what I mean?
INTERVIEWEE: In the pews. So it...while it wasn't chaotic it was definitely informal in...in how it looked.
ERICKSEN: What did you see in students' faces? Let's start with the faces of students waiting in line?
INTERVIEWEE: That's a good question. Students waiting in line? I encouraged students waiting in line to pray for one another. I encouraged people who were sitting out in the pews to pray for those waiting in line because it wasn't that easy to wait in line. It was hard. Some of the students waiting in line had a friend with an arm around them supporting them. Others were just standing there looking just fine. Others, one or two maybe was kneeling and praying, perhaps because of the...the weight of their confession that they knew they had to give. But for the most part it just looked orderly one after the other waiting in line.
INTERVIEWEE: What did I see on their faces?
INTERVIEWEE: I guess I....
ERICKSEN: I...I think you've...
ERICKSEN: ...covered that. Of those students who still were sitting in the pews, were...were they listening to the person making confession? Were they praying?
INTERVIEWEE: That's a good point, a good question. Throughout all the evenings we repeated certain directives to those who were listening.
INTERVIEWEE: Just general things that needed to be repeated but that were good.
INTERVIEWEE: One was that you can be praying for these people. But it was interesting to me, especially on Sunday evening as it got so late (or early) towards six o'clock a.m., many students who or several of the students who got up to confess sins said, "I just want to thank you people who are staying here to hear me." You know? So I think that the students who sat in the pews listening, you know, and...and even Chaplain Steve [Kellough] being there all night, you know, just the...sitting there listening was a ministry. It was necessary that...that the confessors have a body to confess to. And so a l...quite a few of them when it was really late thanked those who were there. And I thought that was special. I thought that was neat.
ERICKSEN: Okay. [pauses] And you were talking about directives that you were...you mentioned. One was encouraging people to pray.
INTERVIEWEE: Yeah. A directive would be to pray. Another directive would be to please join this person after they confessed for prayer, but students basically got the hang of that very quickly after the first few times. Another directive that I didn't give, or maybe I...I guess I did give it but that was given throughout the week, and it's hard to put this one in words because I don't remember how exactly it was given but was just, "This is not..." I remember myself saying, "We're...this is not a spectator sport. I would like you all to be involved in what's happening here either by praying for the people themselves," (I did remind them to be in prayer) "or, you know, listening." But I'm not sure why I said that except that [pauses] we did want students to be involved and...you know.
ERICKSEN: How much Scripture reading were you injecting?
INTERVIEWEE: Each evening took on a characteristic of its very own.
ERICKSEN: Well, maybe that's a good....
INTERVIEWEE: Yeah. Can we talk about comparisons?
INTERVIEWEE: Yeah, we can.
ERICKSEN: Why don't you go ahead and....
INTERVIEWEE: Okay. Monday or Sunday night, the first night, James Hahn, having experienced many of these, and Brandy gave us the advice, very important advice....When I say us I want you to realize there was myself, Kevin Engel, Dr. [Tim] Beougher, who was faithful and such a good helper in leadership throughout the entire week, and Lyle Dorsett, who also knows students well and so he.....and is well known by students. It was just nice to have a circle of people available to myself and Kevin, who really had the weight of leading the meetings. It was nice to have them at all times ready for advice. Well, James was also and Brandy were helping us with that that evening. But they said that confessions needed to continue, that we needed to not interrupt, because that was the first and most important business. So we didn't do much singing on Sunday ni...or on Sunday night after that until the end, of course, when we ended up with praise to God and worship for what had been done...what had happened. But we...we really restrained ourselves from interjecting much that first evening. The second evening, Monday evening, we felt like there needed to be a break maybe once every hour for a time for students to refocus. Now this suggestion actually came from students. We needed a break to focus our mind on Christ and His victory. And one thing that I said and interspersed one time was that, you know, even though a lot of this...a lot of these confessions and...are weeping, you know, and seem sad, actually each one is a victory because students are getting right with God. So we tried to every hour the second evening, to bring that back to the forefront with a couple students standing up and...and giving testimonies to deliverance that God had given them already. Maybe that didn't happen till Wednesday or Tuesday evening. I take that back. That didn't happen till Tuesday. But on Monday evening what we did instead was try give them a break by having a Scripture read of encouragement, refocusing our eyes on Christ, the victory we had in him, not just the sin that was weighing us down, and then maybe singing a chorus or two, [pauses] and then resuming the testimonies.
INTERVIEWEE: Wednesday evening even more of that except that Wednesday evening we had planned and talked with Chaplain Steve (by the way, who was another person involved in the leadership all week) and our other advisers and realized that we really needed to give the students who had already confessed, but maybe now experiencing the day after, the temptations that come with the day after, or the thoughts, "Was this really real? What did I really do?" We really needed to give them some kind of substantial solid encouragement. So at that point Dr. Beougher and Dr. Dorsett were asked to speak. Dr. Beougher had a burden for giving his ten steps of how to conquer sin, or avoiding...
ERICKSEN: Yeah. And he....
INTERVIEWEE: ...conquer temptation. And he actually brought sheets.
INTERVIEWEE: And...and he spoke that...that eve...that Wednesday evening.
ERICKSEN: Okay. And then Lyle spoke later in the evening?
INTERVIEWEE: Yeah, Lyle...
INTERVIEWEE: ...spoke later Wednesday evening for a break time, again to focus our eyes on some kind of an edification, some kind of a break, to refocus our eyes on Christ, and I believe he spoke on accountability...
INTERVIEWEE: ...and the importance of it. And that was just nice to have those people whom students already love and respect get up and give us a break and [door in adjacent room closes] give us some solid encouragement, especially for the hundreds, I think, or dozens at least of students who already were right with God but, "Where do I go from here?" You know?
ERICKSEN: Any other sort of characterizing feature...distinctive features of the different evenings?
INTERVIEWEE: I think with every passing day students were weary, more weary, because those who were faithful to come and that me...and that was a lot of students, had to make hard choices this week, last week, about...about their studies and their time, how were they going to spent it. That's...that was the thing that frustrated some students. [door in adjacent room closes] So I think people got more tired but...but definitely not tired in the Spirit. People were [pauses]...I can't think of any more specific characteristics that...
INTERVIEWEE: ...defined the evenings, except for Thursday evening, of course.
ERICKSEN: Why don't you go ahead and....
INTERVIEWEE: Okay. Before I do that I will just remind you that...or you already know this, Paul, but that Dr. [A. Duane] Litfin [Wheaton College's president] did coun...come and speak on Wednesday evening.
ERICKSEN: And I'd like to come back to that.
INTERVIEWEE: Okay. Well, that was an encouragement to students. But we can come back to that when you're ready.
INTERVIEWEE: [pauses] Thursday evening.... Well, it's important to know that Wednesday evening (as you'll hear from other students who testify or who you interview)...Wednesday evening at 2:05 [a.m.] or so, the last young man to wait in line had his opportunity to confess his sin and be prayed for. What a release, especially for us in the leadership, who were very very tired. But it was good, and it was important that that happened. We ended then with more praise and worship and thanksgiving to God. Thursday was planned as an evening of celebration for what God had done. There were no in...there were no testimony...no more confessions that were going to be in the plenary session. Rather we were going to have testimonies of praise to what God had worked in people's lives. Maybe outside of the meetings, getting things right here and there, reconciliations that had happened, or victories over sin. And what we did end up having was a...just a wonderful evening, a glorious evening of praise and worship, surrounded on both sides with just praise that was glorious to God. Thursday evening as I was on stage helping just to moderate, that's really doing very little with Kevin.... We did have Dr. [Jean] Blumhagen, a trustee of the College who was present, who had a burden her heart come up and share near the end, just about an outward focus, and we wanted our evening to end and it did end with an outward focus. What does this mean not just for us now? What does this means perhaps looking outward towards the world? And Dr. Blumhagen had come that evening and all of us leaders had been convicted the night before, interestingly, in our prayers, that we needed to have an outward focus this evening, Thursday evening. So we ended with Dr. Blumhagen giving a challenge to consider really missions, and, quite a few of the student praises involved that in fact, without prompting, a good portion of them, like maybe one fourth, involved, "Listen guys, you know, what are we doing, you know? Where do we go from here?" So I was suggested...it was suggested to me by a student right near the end that we have students come up, and...at the end on Thursday evening who wanted to devote their lives to full-time Christian service, and kneel, and be prayed over. So, at the...near like the end, after the last testimony of praise to God, I got up and said...basically read some statistics that one of the students had brought with him that evening of how many missionaries went out in 1950 after the revival, and then the pitifully poor numbers of missionaries that were going out from us in these years: nine in 1993. And I said, "You know, we...we do realize that some of these students are still paying off loans, etcetera," but I just read those statistics real quickly, like a hundred-and-so-many in 1950, nine in 1993. I said, "Guys, if there are those of you who would like to commit your lives to ministry, full-time Christian service, I'd like you to come up to the front and I'd like you to kneel, and we'd like to pray over you. And immediately the entire front of.... At this point we were not in Pierce. We were in College Church across the street, which is an auditorium that holds fifteen hundred, and it was packed. We [pauses]...the...the entire front of the auditorium was filled with students, and the aisles going all the way back to as far as I could see were filled with students. I have no way of knowing how many students were there. I wish I did. I prayed over them and then I handed the microphone to Dr. [Lyle] Dorsett, who was on the floor, and he prayed a prayer of dedication over them. So that was distinctive about Thursday night: a victory time.
ERICKSEN: Okay. Now you mentioned Dr. Litfin speaking on Wednesday evening. What went into coordinating that? Did he approach you? Did you approach him? How'd that work?
INTERVIEWEE: No. Students had been talking all week actually, about their curiosity, and students who were concerned about Dr. Litfin not being there. I happened to have spoken with him earlier in the week and he had shaken my hand and said, "Matt, God has answered many people's prayers. Praise God." So...this was after the Sunday night meeting. We had been assured by Chaplain Steve, the leadership of us, had...this group of leadership had been assured by Chaplain Steve that Dr. Litfin was entirely supportive and was staying away for what he felt was a purpose of not getting in the way, more or less. He didn't want to bring bureaucracy, bring...I think his motives and intentions were good, but I think what [pauses] actually ended up happening was that the message was communicated to him, not by myself, but by some others, maybe in the administration who were participating in the revival evenings, that his presence would really be an encouragement to students. So he did come on Wednesday night, and [pauses] basically addressed us, encouraged us, and told students why he hadn't been coming, but that his heart was really, really there. And he stayed the whole evening. So, it was an encouragement.
ERICKSEN: What, what kind of feedback did you get from students [pauses] to his comments?
INTERVIEWEE: Everyone, I think, was encouraged by Dr. Litfin coming. I personally didn't hear anyone say anything profoundly against or for what he had said. I just think it was a tremendous encouragement to the hearts of students that he came. Go ahead.
ERICKSEN: Well, I'm going to head on...on a...
ERICKSEN: ...little bit different direction so, I want to....
INTERVIEWEE: That's all I had to say.
ERICKSEN: Okay. As you think back over the weekend (maybe you've already answered this question), what, what [pauses]...what incident or memory sort of sticks out most for you?
INTERVIEWEE: [pauses] Wow. That's a hard question to answer.
ERICKSEN: There's maybe too many, or...?
INTERVIEWEE: Yeah. I'll tell you....
ERICKSEN: Or just one of them.
INTERVIEWEE: No, I...I...I can tell you. The...the fact that each student who came up to confess was having a life-changing and profound time in their life was overwhelming for Kevin and me. You know, the first two, three, four, ten, twenty, thirty students were profound. After that it was too much for us to take in. It was too much for us to be awed by. Our eyes had been cried out. Our emotions had been, you know...so I think the profundity of so many people having such a profound and life-changing experience is the memory that is the biggest one for me, even though I wasn't...even though I...it didn't...it wasn't accompanied by great excitement in the end for me. It's...it's the greatest thing, I think, that happened.
ERICKSEN: Any of the confessions that stand out in your mind more than...?
INTERVIEWEE: Yes, there are, but I'm...I'm hesitant to...
INTERVIEWEE: ...to give those because I'm...I don't wanna [pauses]...want...I...I'll.... I'm...I'm not sure if I should do this or not. [pauses] You know, there were confessions of everything. One student confessed his [pauses] animosity toward authority, and especially here at school, and the authority structures and students who were in leadership positions, and right on up to the...the top leadership of our school. And just to see him really repent and get right and be prayed over, by leaders, by the president, that was a profound experience for me, so....
ERICKSEN: Okay. [pauses] What [pauses]...I'm...I'm curious, too...I'm sure with each successive day you were getting more questions about what's going on, or asking for your interpretation of what's going on, and now it's been over a week. How...does...how does it feel to be asked to analyze it?
ERICKSEN: ...or.... I don't exactly know how to ask the question.
INTERVIEWEE: Well, we're getting lots of calls from a lot of places all over the country, from the Evangelical world, that is, to tell them what happened. How does it feel to try to analyze it? First of all, those of us who are in leadership have hardly had a chance to rest. [Ericksen laughs] We've had other responsibilities that haven't ended, that have kept us on the run. So, along with the students (I'm a student), but along with everyone else, we're exhausted. We haven't had a chance to reflect.
INTERVIEWEE: So, basically, reflections like this one I'm giving you today are pretty hot off the press, I guess. Haven't had much chance to...
INTERVIEWEE: ...to analyze, if...if you will.
ERICKSEN: What would you say were the low points for you?
INTERVIEWEE: The beauty of this revival [laughs], and that's the only one I've ever experienced...the beauty of the revival is that when you have an open mike you are always in danger of someone going off in right field or left field. The beauty of this experience is that while not every testimony perhaps was heartfelt and sincere, while not every testimony stuck to our designated guidelines such as "Don't confess the sins of someone else," you know, (we did give a few things like that. That's another directive I forgot to mention)....
ERICKSEN: Okay. And that you mentioned right up front before anyone had...?
INTERVIEWEE: No, but during...
INTERVIEWEE: ...as we thought of these things...
INTERVIEWEE: ...we would mention them.
ERICKSEN: Was any of that in response to things...
INTERVIEWEE: Yes, actually it was.
ERICKSEN: ...that people were already doing?
INTERVIEWEE: Yes, actually it was.
INTERVIEWEE: So that...that's...that's really where leadership came in. Leadership was not a big part of this revival as far as students' confessions go, but it was still necessary that we have a guiding principle guiding people. What was the question again, Paul?
ERICKSEN: We're talking about low points, and you were saying....
INTERVIEWEE: Just one of the beauties of this experience has been that there were very few, if any.... While...while there may have been some students who got up just to get up and talk, I don't sense that there were...I sensed that the great vast majority of these confessions were sincere. And they were confessions of sin. They were confessions asking for forgiveness from God and from the body. And they weren't glorifying to sin, and they weren't off the deep end, and there weren't many at all who got up to preach some agenda. This is always a danger with open mikes is that some...I mean, when you open up a mike to an auditorium full of people, you don't know what you're going to get. The beauty of this week was that there were no super-low points. There were none.
INTERVIEWEE: There were a few students who maybe said a few questionable things but, hey, with all the...with all the powerful work that was done in so many people's lives, how can we complain? That's impo...you know, we can't complain.
ERICKSEN: Now, let's see, you were saying something like some people [pauses]...got up to get up or something. I don't remember...
ERICKSEN: ...exactly how you phrased it.
ERICKSEN: How did you...how did you sense that?
INTERVIEWEE: Well, one of the other directives I ended up giving two nights into this revival was just a caution that "Brothers and sisters, you do not need to give a confession unless the Holy Spirit leads you to give a confession. You do not need to come up here because of peer pressure, and please don't."
ERICKSEN: Now I heard you say that Wednesday night.
INTERVIEWEE: Yeah, Wednesday night. I said it two nights. "If the Sp...you know, come up only if you particularly feel that you're being led to come up, you know, or that you really have something you want to confess," and I also assured them that there was nothing that they should feel inferior about if they had not...if they did not have a need to confess. That was not why we were here: to impress one another, you know, or to.... And...and that you weren't more spiritual if you got up and confessed. That was another directive.
ERICKSEN: Okay. When did you have your meetings amongst you [interviewee laughs], the leadership group?
INTERVIEWEE: That's funny. Every day of this revival we did not come...I mean, we did not plan a four day, five day revival, okay? We did not plan a thing. Every day when we closed out the evening with still ten to twenty students, thirty students waiting to testify, we realized, especially at the good advice of Dr. Beougher, who assured us that it was very necessary that students have the chance to confess, and so we took his wisdom there and decided to continue every evening. But what that meant was that we all went home to our families or to our school work, or to our dorms and crashed, and had to get up the next day to meet our days, and had to scramble for the next evening. That included finding a place to meet sometimes. That included getting a poster out to students if the meeting place changed. And we did a poster every day. The WCF marketing team was just beautiful in how much effort they gave to...to...to put up a poster for us every day. I mean, that's a big deal. And of course, they didn't put up a full-size poster, but they but up a small one. Then usually it would be myself and Kevin Engel, Chaplain Steve Kellough, Dr. Beougher, and Dr. Dorsett, who would meet, just to pray and to see where we felt the Spirit was leading.
ERICKSEN: Would that have been in the morning?
INTERVIEWEE: It would have been any time we could get our heads together.
ERICKSEN: All get together.
INTERVIEWEE: Yeah, I mean, that...just imagine that...the task of trying to get us together.
INTERVIEWEE: It wasn't easy. Sometimes one or more of us wasn't there, you know. But the Spirit ended up leading. And what's funny is that we didn't get together necessarily just to plan. We did get together to try to discern where the Spirit was leading and to give the evenings their general structure. But oftentimes every evening when we arrived, Dr. Beougher would come up to me and Kevin and say, "You know, I really feel this," or Dr. Dorsett would come up and say, "You know, I just talked with this student and I think he should have a chance to say this 'cause I think the students need to hear this." Just stuff like that, you know, and...and a group of students coming up and saying, "We really feel like there needs to be a break for us to focus our attention on the victory of Christ throughout this evening." You know, things like that happening right at the beginning of evenings. "We...we feel that there should be testimonies of victory interspersed throughout tonight." Things like that. Basically, while we looked like we were in leadership, we really were only supplying the channel for...for the Holy Spirit to move, I think. You know what I mean? I believe that God was working through his whole people this week to do His will and his purposes, and I think that the openness we tried to maintain was the...basically our leadership.
ERICKSEN: How was it decided who was going to be on the platform?
INTERVIEWEE: Well, Kevin and I got very tired and fatigued after the first two or three days. And at that point began to ask qualified student leaders to help us out with the load. So we did approach a couple people and they, as you saw, if you were there, did take our seats on stage, basically just to guide, to be a safeguard against someone who would get up and try to carry the evening in another direction, or something like that.
ERICKSEN: Did you...had you in the leadership talked through "What do we do when?" in case something...a situation like that developed?
INTERVIEWEE: Yes, we had. We had talked about what to do if a student goes off and...you know, just the...just how to handle those situations.
ERICKSEN: What'd you agree on?
INTERVIEWEE: First of all that, a principle in revival, that Dr. Beougher was very willing to tell us, was that the leadership needed to be willing to be...to step in and say, "I'm sorry. That's not appropriate for the purposes that we've met for." Basically stop that person from speaking. Another method or avenue would be to, if someone was really having trouble, just to ask some people to come and pray with that person. Those were the basic two methods that we had in our hands to use. You can't have a person get up and start preaching some doctrine that's...
INTERVIEWEE: ...really wrong. You can't let that happen. That's not edifying to God or to His people.
ERICKSEN: And did authority to make that decision reside in the person on the stage, or did you have some sort of, you know, "If I look at you and wink twice," and...?
INTERVIEWEE: No, it was residing in the person who...
INTERVIEWEE: ...was on stage. That would have been Kevin, Saranell Kracht [sp?], who was our student body...our student...senior class president this year. She was asked (I asked her) during the week if she would be willing to relieve Kevin and me some of the time, and she said yes. That would have been Kevin. That would have been Doug O'Donnell, another person on WCF cabinet, so....
ERICKSEN: Amongst those of you that were meeting for planning, did you see roles begin to develop? I know it was a fairly short period of time, but you've...you've kind of talked of the contribution that Tim was making...
ERICKSEN: ...and Dr. Dorsett.
INTERVIEWEE: There were roles. Dr. Dorsett and Tim [Beougher] were generous in their compliments to Kevin and me about our leadership, as far as how they felt that we were really being sensitive [pauses] to the students and stuff. So I...I'm sure that they...they...I didn't see it so much, but they did say that they felt like we were really supposed to be the ones who were emceing. Dr. Beougher was invaluable in his understanding of how God has chosen to work in history, and saying, "You know, because of what I know about that, from what I've studied at the Asbury Revival, etcetera, I really think that the best course of action for tonight is this. Dr. Dorsett, just a very respected, very respected prof...professor on campus, someone who is involved and been praying for revival for years, you know. I guess [pauses]...I'm...I...I can't specify his role as well as I can Dr. Beougher's. Chaplain Steve [Kellough] had a very important role. His role would be that of...of [pauses] safeguarding us from making decisions or planning the evenings in ways that wouldn't have been proper for the College. So he was a very good person, obviously very important that he was there.
ERICKSEN: Was he playing more of a sounding board? You might suggest something and he would say, "I don't think that's such a good idea," or was he more of an active "I think you should go in this direction"? How...?
INTERVIEWEE: There was such a spirit among us leaders of "I don't want to be in...the one who gets in the way of the Spirit of God." There was such a spirit of "I don't want to be on stage." There was such a spirit of "I just want to discern God's will here. Brother, I submit to you." There was such a spirit of, you know, that happening that there was...I can't remember one time when there was ever a disagreement. It was always a suggestion, then the body thought about it, the body came to a conclusion, and prayed for God's guidance, you know.
ERICKSEN: Which issues did it seem to take the longest to...to come to consensus on? Anything stand out?
INTERVIEWEE: Yes. Whether or not to stop testimonies. Because they were taking so long, so many nights, and so much time and energy, there were some who thought that testimonies should be dealt...or relegated to small groups, so that we could get past that part, and into the celebration part sooner. But Dr. Beougher was very strong in his understanding of the history of revival, that while it may seem like an easier way to get past that part, that for these individual students, it was a life-changing event, and that it was very important that we let this continue. So that was one point where there was questioning, praying done. Another one was how to handle Thursday evening, whether to open it up for more students who might want to confess, or to change it to a celebratory and [pauses]...night. And [pauses]...we all came to consensus in the end.
ERICKSEN: Yeah. Now I wasn't there that long on S...on Thursday evening, but I noticed one young man who sort of wrapped the two together, and while giving testimony conveyed the different aspects of his confession and the way that God had responded to those. [pauses] Now I also noticed when [pauses] I got there early Wednesday, and there was...students were just kind of milling around, talking in small groups, but there was a fairly sizable group of you over on the left side in College Church, some praying. Did that happen at a given time every evening?
INTERVIEWEE: Every evening had no structure [laughs], no, I mean....
ERICKSEN: Okay. So you didn't agree ahead of time, "We're going to meet here and...."
INTERVIEWEE: No. I think I walked over and...and said let's pray...
INTERVIEWEE: ...to the group of...of us who were...were there in leadership and we just prayed, you know. We were very...we were very dependent upon the Lord throughout the week...
INTERVIEWEE: ...you know? It...we wanted it to be His revival, not ours.
ERICKSEN: What kind of...? No, I'll save that question. [pauses] I've heard some people sort of guestimate, and it's...it's very rough guestimates, as to what proportion of the student body came and those that didn't come at all. Somewhere half, two-thirds. Any feelings about that? Anything more concrete that you've kind of [pauses] agreed on together as you...? I mean, nobody's taking attendance, so it's pretty hard...
INTERVIEWEE: ...to tell.
INTERVIEWEE: No. It's hard to tell. But with fifteen hundred people packing out College Church two nights in a row, I don't know. I do know that there was an influx all the time of people coming and going. I know that students left and came back, because they went and got roommates and friends. I know that people left at to...or earlier to go home, because they were tired, and others came, after they finished their homework. So, I mean, it's hard to know, you know.
ERICKSEN: Did that in...that movement...?
INTERVIEWEE: It wasn't noticeable but I know it...
INTERVIEWEE: ...was happening. It wasn't a distraction, but I knew it was happening, 'cause I talked to friends.
ERICKSEN: Uh-huh. What [pauses]...what kind of negative feedback did you get from students maybe who came and observed, or students who just refused to come? Or maybe they weren't talking to you.
INTERVIEWEE: Yeah, that's more...that's more likely. They weren't talking to me.
ERICKSEN: Did you hear things second-hand?
INTERVIEWEE: The only thing that I heard second-hand was questions as to two things: the authenticity of the evenings, and whether or not this was worked up. [recorder turned off; interview continued on audio tape T59]
END OF TAPE