This is a complete and accurate transcript of the tape of the oral history interview of Helen Ruth Supplee Jongewaard (CN 486, T1) in the Archives of the Billy Graham Center. No spoken words have been omitted, except for any non-English phrases which could not be understood by the transcribers. Foreign terms which are not commonly understood appear in italics. In very few cases words were too unclear to be distinguished. If the transcriber was not completely sure of having gotten what the speaker said, "[?]" was inserted after the word or phrase in question. If the speech was inaudible or indistinguishable, "[unclear]" was inserted. Grunts and verbal hesitations such as "ah" or "um" were usually omitted. The transcribers have not attempted to phonetically replicate English dialects but have instead entered the standard English word the speaker was expressing.
Readers should remember that this is a transcript of spoken English, which follows a different rhythm and rule than written English.
... Three dots indicate an interruption or break in the train of thought within the sentence on the part of the speaker.
.... Four dots indicate what the transcriber believes to be the end of an incomplete sentence.
( ) Words in parentheses are asides made by the speaker.
[ ] Words in brackets are comments by the transcriber.
This transcript was made by Timothy Gulsvig and Paul Ericksen and was completed in January 2008.
Collection 486, T1. Interview of Helen Jongewaard by Robert Shuster, May 17, 1993.
SHUSTER: ...On, let’s see, May 7th, 1993. I wonder if we could start with just a little bit of family background. When and where were you born?
JONGEWAARD: I was born in India of missionary parents, in Northeast India, in what is now called Nagaland in the province of Assam. My folks were Baptist missionaries, and....
SHUSTER: What were their names?
JONGEWAARD: My...Mr. and Mrs. George W Supplee, and....
SHUSTER: And your mother’s name was?
JONGEWAARD: My mother’s name was Ruth Lamberton Supplee. They were both from Pennsylvania, but my mother had gone to Moody Bible Institute. She was not saved actually until two weeks before she graduated [laughs] from Moody Bible Institute. And my father had an in...very interesting calling. Anyway, the Lord led them to India for educational work, and we (there are four of us, I’m the oldest of four)...and we were all born in India.
SHUSTER: What...when did you become a Christian?
JONGEWAARD: Well, I can’t exactly say when I was saved. I know that I was very conscious of...of needing to be saved. And watching what happened in the lives of the people out there, and seeing the tremendous change in them, I wanted that to take place. And my parents were very conscientious about giving us the Word. We heard it all the time. We had regular family Bible-reading. And I read the Elsie books. I don’t know if anyone’s ever heard of them or remembers them.
SHUSTER: Why don’t you describe them.
JONGEWAARD: That...that is a series of books about a little girl who was...who memorized a lot of Scripture and lived what people called a Polyanna kind of life. But anyway, she was a....
SHUSTER: Which meant a...a life of....
JONGEWAARD: A...a...a role model.
SHUSTER: Looking on the optimist...
SHUSTER: ...the better side of things.
JONGEWAARD: Well, yes, but she also believed in...in following the Scripture. And through this I memorized a lot of Scripture. And I think that I was about nine years old when I was really saved. But it was watching the native people that had the big influence on me, and seeing them be baptized, and then coming away from that experience and growing and being involved in Christian work. And my folks believed in all of us being involved in the mission work, and that helped a great deal too. So, I’d say about nine years old, and then I was baptized out there in a spring on a mountainside.
SHUSTER: How did you happen to come to Wheaton?
JONGEWAARD: Well, of course, I knew nothing about any schools in America. I’d had one year of grade school in Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh, when I was five. Then I had one year of high school, a combination junior...and sophomore and junior year, because the folks...Mother and Dad had schooled us at home with the Calvert School Course. And [clears throat] then for high school, went away to high school, to Woodstock School, which is in North Central India. It was...fifteen hundred miles away from...from my parents. I was there for nine months. Then...and I graduated from there. So the folks had made the choice of Wheaton College. Mother, having graduated from Moody, knew about Wheaton, and....
SHUSTER: Why not send you to Moody?
JONGEWAARD: Well, they wanted me to get a...an academic degree, and then thought about my going to Moody later on. Then I heard Frank Fiol, who was a Wheaton alum of 1937 , I believe. And he spoke out in our...the school that I attended, and spoke about Wheaton. And I was all excited to learn a little more about Wheaton.
SHUSTER: What did he say?
JONGEWAARD: Well, he just said there was a...a wonderful Christian school and had good academic standing. So I was glad to hear more about it, and I looked forward to coming back.
SHUSTER: Did you have a...a career goal in mind at the time?
JONGEWAARD: I...I wanted to be a missionary. I felt the Lord wanted me to go back to the mission field. I came back traveling with missionaries. One thing my parents had done for all of us was to train us to make decisions early, because we had to leave home so early. I traveled with this missionary family as f...and got to New York City. The executive...the secretary of the American Baptist Board was supposed to meet me. He forgot. [Shuster laughs] I was alone in New York City on a Saturday with five borrowed dollars.
SHUSTER: And you were seventeen, eighteen?
JONGEWAARD: And I was seventeen years old. So I had to grow up fast. [Shuster laughs] It’s a long story, but I eventually made connections with him. I went to a hotel I knew, that...where they sent the missionaries, and I did a lot of weeping. [both laugh] Being homesick. But it was training for further experiences in life. And I worked my way back to...to Chicago, where my grandmother was living on Division Street, in a one...my grandmother and grandfather. And I spent a f...some days with them before coming out to Wheaton.
SHUSTER: Do you recall...you came out to Wheaton by train?
SHUSTER: Do you recall what your first impression was when you stepped off the train and saw the campus?
JONGEWAARD: Well, it was...it was just exciting to be here. It just...from the very first, it felt like a bit of heaven on earth because there were so many Christians and people who believed the Bible the same way I did. I...I’d gone to school with missionary children, but many of them from liberal backgrounds. So I was always having to defend the faith [laughs] as it were. And it was...it was just a wonderful experience. And then I remember the freshmen days...freshmen... where we were getting acquainted, down on what is now...what’s the name of the field now? The football field.
SHUSTER: Let’s see, Centennial Field?
JONGEWAARD: Yes, I....
SHUSTER: McCully Field?
JONGEWAARD: No. Right down here. McCully Field, I guess. Anyway, the one which is right near...next to the Center. And we had a certain period of time in which to collect names and countries, or states, places. And so, we were doing that, and....
SHUSTER: So all the...all the freshmen were on the field, and....
JONGEWAARD: All the freshman were together. This was orientation and getting acquainted. And we all had name tags and our state or country. And I was collecting names and a bunch of fellows came up and saw my tag and said, “Oh, here’s one from India. Let’s get her.” So, I...they were copying mine, and I started copying their’s. Well, one of them was my now-husband, Bob Jongewaard. And I took one look at that name, and I said, “That’s too long for me. I’ll never get anywhere with that.” [both laugh]
SHUSTER: So you never know. Was their prize forgetting the most names or was it...?
JONGEWAARD: Oh, I can’t remember. There might have been some sort of prize, but then I found out that he too had been born and raised, well, born in India, had been there only until four years old. And we got acquainted, but it was a while before we started going together. [laughs]
SHUSTER: What was it like being on Wheaton campus, having grown up in India? Did that...?
JONGEWAARD: Well, it was...it was a...a totally different experience. I had no idea what kind of courses to take. I didn’t know what an hour stood for, what it meant. I had a wonderful, wonderful big sister, and you probably know her, Virginia Culver Elsen, John Elson’s wife. And she just piloted me through registration, told me what requirements I had. I started thinking I would major in education, and after the first few days, I didn’t like that, and I switched to...to math. And I liked it very well, but then in my second year, I was given...they were giving scarlet fever shots to people. It was kind of an experimental situation. Well, I got the shots, and I got so sick. I was sick for about three weeks, and if you miss three weeks of calculus, you [laughs]...you don’t fake it.
SHUSTER: You never catch up.
JONGEWAARD: No, I barely squeaked through. So I changed my major then to zoology, which I had looked at when I was a freshman and thought anyone that majors in this is crazy. So I....
SHUSTER: [laughs] So how did you come to choose this?
JONGEWAARD: Well, I thought about going into nursing, because, by then, Bob and I were engaged and he was going to be a doctor, and I thought, “Well, I’ll go into nursing.” And I was interested in things pertaining to nursing, but I never did get into nursing. That was his decision.
SHUSTER: Looking back at the years that you were...spent at Wheaton, what do you think are the strengths and weaknesses of the education here?
JONGEWAARD: Well, I...I was try...I was thinking of that and...and trying to think of anything that I thought of as a weakness. It just...everything [Shuster laughs] seemed perfect to me. I lived in what is now a fountain, [laughs] used to be called the Annex, and then we named it Maranatha. It was temporary housing, sort of like a Quonset [hut].
SHUSTER: It’s where the fountain is now in the...
JONGEWAARD: Where the fountain is over there in the...
JONGEWAARD: ...Quadrangle, yes.
SHUSTER: ...across from McManis.
JONGEWAARD: Yes, right next to the infirmary. I lived there, and we had some very close friendships. And I worked...I worked...wanted to get a job in the dining hall, but wasn’t able to. But then I did some babysitting in the community, and eventually got a job in the dining hall. But I think if I...any weakness that I would think of would be perhaps the relationship with the town. We seemed to be totally isolated from the town, and I think that that has improved since then. But as far as the education, I feel I got a very excellent education. I had wonderful profs, and....
SHUSTER: Who were some of the professors who stand out in your mind?
JONGEWAARD: Well, in zoology I had Dr. [Russell] Mixter, whom...whom I regard very highly. Summer school I took two summers because I didn’t have any home in the United States, so I stayed here and cleaned dorms. And...and I had Dr. [Merrill] Tenney, and I never worked so hard in my life, [Shuster laughs] taking Romans [book in the New Testament] from him. And...but I got so much from it. I enjoyed him. I took voice. It was an extracurricular. I got no credit for it, but I had Uncle Bill [H.William] Nordin. And he...he was such an influence in my life. And I sang in what was then called the Chapel Choir. And he encouraged me a great deal. I didn’t...I lo...loved music. My fa...parents loved music and had taught us piano and...and instruments. And we even had a band out in India. So I was...I just enjoyed the musical activities, but I didn’t feel I wanted to major in music because I didn’t really want to teach it. But Uncle Bill Nordin was...was very special. And then I had Carl Henry for Ethics and Theism. And since I was so young, when I came, I think...I know that I was not developed enough [laughs] ma...you know, mentally, to absorb what really needed to be absorbed from Ethics and Theism, and I struggled with that. But we were having a class in E20...what was E201 [in Blanchard Hall]. It’s no longer there, but it was a classroom that sometimes had been used as a chapel, I guess, and...and had a slanting floor. And I sat next to one of my classmates. My name was S [for Supplee], his...Chuck Swenson it was. And in the tests, which were true-false [laughs] and multiple choice, and I was at sea in a lot of things [Shuster laughs], we were unashamedly flipping coins. [Shuster laughs] We thought that could give as much...as much [laughs] guidance as we knew on a true-false question which seemed very vague. Chuck Swenson dropped his, and it rolled all the way to the front of the classroom [Shuster laughs] where Carl Henry was sitting. Without raising his head, he said, “What do you do if it stands on end?” [both laugh] And then I had Revelation from Dr. [Henry C.] Thiessen, and I valued his teaching very much, and shared that class, too, with Billy Graham. And that summer, he performed the first wedding.
SHUSTER: Billy Graham did?
JONGEWAARD: Yes, with John Thorne. He married John Thorne and Sue Gates.
SHUSTER: Classmates of yours?
JONGEWAARD: Ye...well, Jo...yes. John ended up being a classmate. He was a five-year student. And I sang in chorus with Sue Gates. And John and I were very active in Foreign Missions Fellowship. So Billy was to...he was to perform the ceremony. I was to sing. My brother Bill, who is two years younger than I, was to play. And it was a first for all of us, and we were so nervous. [laughs] And we went out to....
SHUSTER: More nervous than the couple.
JONGEWAARD: That’s right. We went out to the home of the bride. She came from a well-to-do family in Mishawaka [Indiana]. Johnny Thorne came from the opposite s...in the...in the econo...economic level.
SHUSTER: Poor family.
JONGEWAARD: Poor family. His folks had to come all the way from Milwaukee (and that was before the days of freeways), all the way around through Chicago [laughs] and around to Mishawaka. And they were an hour late. So we sat there and got more and more and more nervous, and my brother was playing. He played everything he’d planned to play. [Shuster laughs] This was a wedding in...in a home. And I kept leafing through the hymnal, and finally we got to the wedding. And Billy has recalled that many times, that his first wedding [laughs] was...was rather a terrifying experience [both laugh], but we got through it alright.
SHUSTER: How did it seem to you?
JONGEWAARD: I was nervous, but we...we got through it alright.
SHUSTER: [laughs] Let me ask you.... You mentioned some of the professors who you remembered. Let me ask you a bit more about them, particularly Nordin...Professor Nordin, you said, greatly influenced you. How did he influence you?
JONGEWAARD: Well, he encouraged me. I didn’t have an awful lot of confidence in singing and...and he just encouraged me so. And another thing that impressed me was his humility. He...he had all kinds of honors, but I was just so impressed with that. And when we sang, his face just reflected the message of the songs we were singing. And he was concerned about giving out a message and used songs that related...that people liked to hear. One of the hymns we sang all four years was just the straight rendition of “Beneath The Cross of Jesus,” and each time, I sang the second verse as a solo. And taking voice from him was a real privilege, and there were four of us non-music majors who took one course. And Roy Lambert, Bob Oliver, and Martha Cox and I were in that, and we had a great time. We did get one...one-hour credit for that, and we put on a couple of recitals, and we...we just enjoyed it. And he was very special to our family. He taught all of them in voice. And he ha....
SHUSTER: Were you the first?
JONGEWAARD: I was the first, and then my brother Bill, and then my sister Jean. I think my youngest brother didn’t have him, but he had a picture of all the four of us, and he kept it on his desk for quite a while.
SHUSTER: How would you describe him as a teacher? What was his method of teaching?
JONGEWAARD: He...in...in teaching, he was able to explain things like voice positioning, which isn’t easy. But he was able to explain it very...so that...so that I could put it to use. In fact, I asked him one time to...if he’d write down what principles I could use in passing this on to others, including my children, and he...he wrote down the various basic principles. And not to force your voice. Just sing naturally. Don’t try to be something you aren’t, but use what you do have, and...and he was just a very special person to me. And Dr. [V. Raymond] Edman, of course. I have...I have not mentioned him, but Dr. Edman had just untold influence on my life. I remember.... See, he became president mid-year of our first year. And I didn’t know what brought about the change, and I don’t have too many memories of Dr. [J. Oliver] Buswell. But I did remember after Dr. Edman became president. It was not too long after that I was down in the...walking in the first floor Blanchard, and met him in the hall. And he greeted me by name and asked me how my folks were doing in India, and I nearly.... [laughs] I...I could hardly answer; I was so surprised that he even knew me, much less anything about me. But that was his trade, and....
SHUSTER: How do you mean that was his trade?
JONGEWAARD: To know people. He did the same to our son even, who felt the same way. And he did it to my husband. He called people by name, and he prayed for everyone. He and his wife prayed for everyone by name around the campus.
SHUSTER: Had he known your parents or...
SHUSTER: ...just made it his business to find out who they were?
JONGEWAARD: ...no. He just made it his business to find out, and his chapel services were just tremendous.
SHUSTER: What was tremendous about them? How would you describe a chapel service?
JONGEWAARD: Well, he...his...his gift for expression. I have nearly every book that he’s written. His prayers too. Maybe they’d be only one or two sentences, but they would...they would have so much in the...the...the...they weren’t window dressing. I mean, there wasn’t anything extra there. It was so thoughtful. And he had such a...such a gift for expression. I...I’m at a loss for words to explain it. But one of his books, The Disciplines, I have given literally hundreds of copies away to people who have treasured that, and I wish it were still in print. I heard that it was maybe going to be in print again, but it’s a timeless book, and I think it...it would be worth having. But then when the time came for me to make a decision.... See, of course, the war came along then.
SHUSTER: Decision about...?
JONGEWAARD: This was in ‘42.
SHUSTER: To make a decision about...?
JONGEWAARD: Right, about getting married.
JONGEWAARD: Bob and I were engaged the following...our sophomore year. We were...we had no dates set [laughs]. We didn’t know what was going to happen. We knew we’d have to earn our living before we could think of getting married. And he was going to med school. He went at the end of his junior year. The war came on. My folks were in India as long as they possibly could be. My father was in charge of refugees coming over the hills from Burma into India ahead of the Japanese. He was the only white person who could speak the language and would work with the...with the people. And finally, when the Japanese were getting too close, the British and the American military said they could no longer take responsibility for civilian personnel, so they had them come back here. Well, it was getting toward graduation time. The...many of the fellows had been drafted. My husband had gone into medicine at the end of his junior year. So I was here for my senior year, finishing that up. And we...since I had no home here in the States, why we wanted to have our friends with us. The word was that once.... Well, the word was that they were going to put the medical students as well as other professional students into uniform, the ASTP [Army Specialized Training Program].
SHUSTER: “They” being the Army?
SHUSTER: Or “they” being government?
JONGEWAARD: Our military, either army or navy. And that they wouldn’t be able to get married until after the war was over. Well, that seemed like an interminable period. So, we talked about it. My folks, meanwhile, had had to leave India. Any word I had from them was months, weeks old. They came...had...had to come by way of going around Africa. They couldn’t come through the Mediterranean, the Suez and the Mediterranean. They got bumped in...in, first, Durban and then Capetown for several weeks and then were on troop ships. Couldn’t come across the Atlantic. I...I couldn’t hear from them. They sent a cablegram in April of ‘43 from South Africa, wishing me a happy birthday. Well, my birthday is May 10th. And so I took it to mean that they hoped to be here by then. Well, they weren’t. Then around my birthday time, they sent another cablegram: “Congratulations on graduation.” So I took it they hoped to be [Shuster laughs], which is what they did mean, because, of course, we couldn’t use dates or times. And meanwhile I was studying for comprehensives. I had talked to Dr. Edman. And I’d talked to other missionaries. [laughs] “What should I do,” you know? We’d like to have our friends here. They’ll all be gone after graduation. They thought that the folks would understand if we went ahead and made plans. So, I went ahead and made plans to get married on graduation day. Graduation in the morning, and getting married in the evening. And we had Plan A and Plan B. If my sister got here with my parents, why she would be a bridesmaid. Otherwise my roommate would be, and my husband’s sister was available for one of the bridesmaids. Well, th...graduation came along, and they were not around. My brother had meanwhile been drafted into the navy. He was in Great Lakes. So I had no family except for my grandmother, who was in Chicago.
SHUSTER: Your grandfather?
JONGEWAARD: No. He had died. He had died during the time that I was here in Wheaton. My...and she was...she was there. Well, the Red Cross was able to get my brother, Bill, out to come to give me away. We had the wedding in College Church. Dr. Edman in the morning handed me my diploma and said, “Wait ‘til tonight.” [laughs] And so, we went ahead with the...with the wedding, and we used the same things as...well, decorations...as Bill [William E.] Geidt and Ellie [Eleanor] Baillie Geidt. They got married in the afternoon, and they used a white runner. It was turned over for our wedding. [Shuster laughs] We used the other side of it. Ellie got some peonies from [laughs] Ed Coray’s yard. So they were two baskets of peonies taken from Ed Coray’s yard and we had two palm trees. The sum total was five dollars for that [Shsuter laughs], and five dollars for the runners. So things were more economical in those days. And we went away.
SHUSTER: Did Dr. Edman perform the service?
JONGEWAARD: Yes. He per...he and Billy, both of them. And Billy had the Scripture and...and prayer, and then [laughs] when it came to the.... Well, during the prayer it was so hot, and I...I looked over at Bob and he was just dripping [Shuster laughs], had a black tux on. And so I handed him this wisp of a handkerchief, and he wiped his face off and he gave it back to me. Dr. Edman recalled that each time he saw me. [both laugh] With the hundreds of weddings he performed, he remembered that. [laughs] And...and then when it came time for the kiss, Dr. Edman whispered to Billy, “Billy, time ‘em.” [both laugh] So we have their autographs on our wedding...marriage certificate. Well, to make a long story short, my folks had to go around South America, around...through Panama Canal, and...and landed at New York City. And I had letters waiting for them, telling them of the...of the turmoil of trying to make the decision. Before they got the letters, they called, person-to-person, to Wheaton for Helen Supplee, and for...for nothing, they got this word. Somebody said, “Oh, she’s married and on her honeymoon.” [laughs]
SHUSTER: [laughs] Well, it must have been a great surprise.
JONGEWAARD: “Well, may we speak...may we speak to Bill Supplee.” “Oh, he’s in the Navy in Great Lakes.” [both laugh] Any news they had of us was nine months old. So Dad said, “Well, we might as well go back to India.” [both laugh] Anyway, they had...they had landed two days after the wedding. So life has been full of interesting experiences.
SHUSTER: Well, you mentioned belonging to Foreign Mission Fellowship. What was...what was that?
JONGEWAARD: I.... The Foreign Missions Fellowship, I don’t know what...what is comparable to it now. But it was those who were looking forward to going to...into missions. And we met, and we heard things about missionaries. If there was an alumna...alumnus here or an alumna here, we heard from them. But we had long prayer lists, and we separated...we divided up into prayer groups for the different countries, like for African countries and India and China and so on, and prayed specifically for those requests. And at one time, Johnny Thorne was the chair...president, and I was the vice president. And we worked together on those. But I was a member of that, I think, for all four years here at Wheaton., and....
SHUSTER: Did many of the students who belonged to it actually go on into foreign missions?
JONGEWAARD: Yes. Many of them did. Many of them did. And during our time, there were...you probably know there were a lot of people who started organizations which are...which are very prominent now. I was look...reading about Paul Freed [see BGC Archives CN 382, Oral History with Paul Freed]. He was here when we were here. And, of course, we heard from Navigators, and Johnny Thorne was one of the original Navigators, and so was Johnny Streeter, who married a Lane girl. The Lanes, too, meant a great deal to...to us. We got to know them very well.
SHUSTER: I know that one...during your senior year, it mentions in your yearbook, Mrs. W...Mrs. J. W. [Mrs. W.J. (Clara)] Guilding of the AIM had talked to you. She was a survivor of the Zamzam [ship sunk by a German warship in the Atlantic Ocean in 1941 during World War II; see BGC Archives Collection 624], which had been sunk.
JONGEWAARD: Oh, yes, yes.
SHUSTER: Do you recall anything about that?
JONGEWAARD: No, I really don’t. But I remember being very concerned about that, about the Zamzam.
SHUSTER: Particularly with your parents, of course, coming back soon.
JONGEWAARD: Well, my parents, yes, and I didn’t know, you know, how they were getting back. It was...it was living by faith for sure. And my...and then the fact that my brother was taken into the military and I was left here alone, there...therein lies another tale. We were...I was taking New Testament Introduction from Dr. Thiessen, and he always liked the hymn “God Leads His Dear Children Along.” So in one form or another, that was a part of the devotions at the start of each class. Either someone would be picked on for...to sing a solo, or they would have a group sing it or they’d recite it, or something like that. Well, the morning that my brother had gotten the word that he was to be taken...that he had to report to Great Lakes [Naval Base in the suburban north shore of Lake Michigan in Chicago area] in...in about a week.
SHUSTER: There was no deferment for college?
JONGEWAARD: No deferment for college, no. He hadn’t...no he wasn’t pre-seminary or anything. He was just a s...he was just a sophomore. And I was feeling pretty blue, and he’d gotten this word just before chapel. My class with Dr. Thies...Dr. Thiessen was right after chapel, and that was the day they...they picked on me. My nickname was Supe. “Supe, it’s your turn to sing.” And as I sang [laughs]....
SHUSTER: Supe from Supplee?
JONGEWAARD: Supe from Supplee, yes. “Supe, it’s your turn to sing.” And I was choked up, but the Lord enabled me to sing, “Some through the water, some through the blood, some..,” you know, “some through the fire, and some through the...but all through the blood. Some through great sorrow, but God gives us song in the night season and all the day long.” I’ve never forgotten that.
JONGEWAARD: And the Lord has been very good.
SHUSTER: You’ve mentioned Billy Graham a couple of times. Of course, he was with you in Foreign Mission Fellowship, and you talked about how you participated in the wedding and other things with him.
SHUSTER: Go ahead.
JONGEWAARD: ...we went to...we went to the Tab [Wheaton Tabernacle in downtown Wheaton] where he preached, and I often sang for him there. And we got to be really good friends, and he...my husband wrestled, and he wrestled with Billy often as a wrestling partner.
SHUSTER: What kind of wrestler was he?
JONGEWAARD: Not much. [both laugh] He was too long and.... [laughs]. I don’t mean that uncomplimentarily.
SHUSTER: No, but....[Shuster laughs]
JONGEWAARD: He was more of...interested really in baseball, but I think he was taking the wrestling for strength-building.
SHUSTER: What...what kind of preacher was he at the Tab? What do you recall about...?
JONGEWAARD: He was excellent. My mother recalls my first mention of him. He had come during like our sophomore year. He wasn’t here the freshman year. And I...I remarked about him, and I said, “He’s gonna go somewhere.” And she...she recalled that I had said that in one of my letters.
SHUSTER: What made you say that? What was it about his preaching that...?
JONGEWAARD: Well, just the...just the...the gift he had for catching everyone’s attention. It was simple, but it was...it was so basic. And he was so convincing, and he was really preaching the gospel. And...and I just ate it up. We all did. In fact, the...the Tab was always full to...to breaking. You know the Tab was...was what met...they had [Shuster coughs] met in the Masonic Hall, and it was downtown. And, in those days, as far [laughs] as our church affiliation, we were tramps. [Shuster laughs] You know, we’d go one place for Sunday school and another place for church. And we’d go to...to the Bible Church for Dr. Wiess’ [sp. ?] Sunday school class. And then we’d go on down to the Tab for church. [laughs]
SHUSTER: It met in the evening, Tabernacle?
JONGEWAARD: Both...both morning and evening.
SHUSTER: Morning and evening.
JONGEWAARD: And Billy preached both morning and evening, and he had a prayer meeting, I believe. I never got to the prayer meetings. But it was a heavy load for him. Plus, he was Student Council president, and he had a lot of other offices. He was in another class. He was in...we...we were in the anthropology class together too.
SHUSTER: You mentioned that he was able to communicate very well. Can you recall an example of that, or...?
JONGEWAARD: Well, just his...his illustrations, and he would...he just presented the gospel so plainly. Anything, anyti...any Scripture that he chose to preach on, he...he...he made it very plain. He wasn’t com...as I say, not complicated at all. I think of different...different preachers at the time. Billy was...had his own particular style. And it...it hasn’t changed a lot. I think he’s very much.... Of course, he’s matured, he’s improved, and...and all of that. But we...we’ve treasured our friendship with him. We’ve seen him periodically. We hope we’ll be able to see him this weekend, briefly anyway. But one time, shortly.... Well, he was in Des Moines for a Youth for Christ rally, and we were there at the time. My husband was in his res....
SHUSTER: This is right after you graduated?
JONGEWAARD: Yeah, this was after he...when he was taking his internship residency in a hospital in Des Moines. And Billy was down there for a crusade, and Cliff Barrows was with him, and Cliff’s daughter Bonnie was just a baby. And they needed a baby-sitter, and I babysat Bonnie backstage all the time [Shuster laughs] during the.... It was held in the theater, the meetings were held in a theater, and I babysat Bonnie there. This was just before he went to Los Angeles, when he....
SHUSTER: Which is in ‘49.
JONGEWAARD: Yes. And not long after that, I...maybe another year or two, we saw him, and he was getting more and more publicity and becoming better and better known. And we saw him and shook hands with him, and I said...just looked into his eyes...I said, “Billy, God keep you humble.” And he said, “You pray that. More than anything else,” he said, “that’s my greatest fear.” And we thank the Lord that he has kept him that way.
SHUSTER: How many people did the Tabernacle hold...or did the hall hold?
JONGEWAARD: I suppose it held a couple hundred, maybe, but we were in chairs. And then there was a kind of a hallway and an entryway, and it was usually full and often students standing all around.
SHUSTER: Had it been full when Dr. Edman was preaching there, too?
JONGEWAARD: Yes, yes. He attracted a...he attracted a good crowd. We hadn’t been down there so much when he was there. We were just kind of getting acquainted, feeling our way around. And I was often on gospel teams, too. I went with John Thorne. We used to go out to Winfield, and John would preach and I’d play the piano and teach a Sunday school class. I went on a lot of gospel teams.
SHUSTER: Who came to the Tabernacle?
JONGEWAARD: I find out that a...well, a lot of the students, many of the students. But what is now the [Evangelical] Free Church [in Wheaton], those were the people that went to the Tab.
SHUSTER: So there were people from the town too.
JONGEWAARD: Yes, there were some people from the town. There was a core of people. The Lanes often went. They were Brethren of course, but at that time there was no Brethren assembly. They were PBs [Plymouth Brethren]. And the Lanes....
SHUSTER: Plymouth...Plymouth Brethren.
JONGEWAARD: Plymouth Brethren, yes, Plymouth Brethren. And the Horness went, Agnes Horness and...and her sister [Ella]. I was trying to think of some others, but I really didn’t get to know too many of the core group, but it...it was largely student atten...attendance. And then Dr. [Merrill] Tenney later on took it over.
SHUSTER: Why not just simply have it meet on campus? I mean, why go into town if most of the people were students?
JONGEWAARD: Well, they did have this core group, and I don’t...and I was...you know, I didn’t pay that much attention to who th...they might have had fifty to a hundred of a...of a core group. But on...during those days, they didn’t...they didn’t meet on campus. They just had the three churches, the College Church, and the Bible Church, and the Tab, that were conservative. There was other churches in town, but mostly, well, there...this was where another of the divisions was. This was the weakness, that the students did not get into the local churches. At that time, see my...since my back...my folks were being supported by the Baptist church, Dad encouraged me to try it anyway. And I did visit a few times, but I...I was so excited to have available...it was kind like a smorgasbord of...of Christian teaching, so we were rather church tramps. [both laugh] I’m sor...sorry to say, but...but it...we enjoyed hearing these speakers.
SHUSTER: So most students went to....
JONGEWAARD: Well, there were the....
SHUSTER: ...from church to church?
JONGEWAARD: There were the lar.... Yes, they either went to the College Church, or the Bi...Bible Church, or the Tab. There was...there was very little...there were some students that went to the denominational churches from which they came, but I knew very little about anybody’s denominational background when we were here. This...this was another thing that impressed me about Wheaton, that the denomination wasn’t important.
SHUSTER: You mentioned that you had been in some classes with...with Billy Graham. How would you describe him as a person?
JONGEWAARD: Well, he was very...he was very dedicated to whatever he did. I...
SHUSTER: How...how do you mean that?
JONGEWAARD: ...I don’t know. I mean...I believe he was as good a...tried to be as good a student as possible, but he had so many involvements. I really don’t know what his...what his [laughs] grades were like. I thought a lot of Ruth. I always admired Ruth. She was kind of a role model for me. I knew that she had a very dedicated devotional life, and this was a...this was an example to me, and an inspiration to me. And I was just thrilled when the two of them were going together and felt that she was the one that...certainly that the Lord had meant for...for Billy. And, of course, I knew John Streeter, who was the one that introduced Billy and Ruth to each other, because I knew the Lanes real well, and John eventually married Carol Lane. And...and so.... Oh, and that was another thing. The Lanes [laughs] had...people would go to their house. They’d invite them Sunday night after church. They’d have as many as forty or fifty.
SHUSTER: College students.
JONGEWAARD: College students, yeah. How the Lord used that family. They roomed and boarded more students through Wheaton College [Shuster laughs] than even they know [Shuster laughs]. And they were so good to me afterwards when my husband was over in Korea in active duty. I had...we had our...our first child, and I came back to Wheaton, and the Lanes offered me an apartment because we had planned to be missionaries, and they wanted to help. And they offered me an apartment for myself and my brother and sister, for Jean and Bill Supplee. And they...rent free and provided for us for almost two years. And special baskets of groceries at Christmas and East...and Thanksgiving, and diaper service [Shuster laughs] for my little boy, and they were just...they were very, very special people.
SHUSTER: You mentioned that at first you were staying at this Quonset hut that was on the....
JONGEWAARD: Yeah. Right on....
SHUSTER: Were there a lot of temporary buildings like that on campus?
JONGEWAARD: No. That...that was....
SHUSTER: That was it.
JONGEWAARD: That was the main one. There were this whole row of buildings which this building has replaced. Of course, they were...they were...there were cottages, you know, but there...there wasn’t....
SHUSTER: But those weren’t owned by the college, right? Those were private homes.
JONGEWAARD: Yeah...I don’t know. Mills Cottage, I think, might...must have been owned by the College, and there were a number of cottages along here. I...I believe they were....
SHUSTER: Along Seminary [Avenue].
JONGEWAARD: Yes, along Seminary, and I believe they were owned by the college. Of course, then, students lived around in homes, and they had a...all...a variety of sizes, but they were.... Especially the men. There were was really no dorm except fourth floor for the men. So they...they were all spread around on the campus.
SHUSTER: You mentioned a couple of times about the way that World War II affected campus, about students being drafted and getting married at graduation because...
SHUSTER: ...men we’re going in...into service. Do you...were you on campus on December 7th, 1941, when Pearl Harbor...?
JONGEWAARD: December 7th, I remember so well. My husband and I...we weren’t married then...but we were in charge of a young people’s group over in Lombard [another suburb of Chicago east of Wheaton]. And it met in a...a second story place which was also had been a Masonic hall, being pastored at the type by [Carl Raymond] Ray Ludwigson, a doctor who...who taught here for many years, Dr. Ray Ludwigson. And I had many interesting connections with him. Well, we had been asked to be in charge of the young people, and we went over there. We took the Aurora & Elgin [commuter train in suburbs of Chicago]. Sometimes we’d walk. It was at Lombard. And we’d get a couple of hamburgers at Prince Castle. [both laugh] You could get two for fifteen cents.
SHUSTER: Is that like White Castle or...?
JONGEWAARD: Yeah, something like that, but it was called Prince Castle, and there was one that was down just a block north of Front Street. And we’d pick up a couple of them and eat that as our supper. And we’d go over there. And we were sitting on the steps, waiting to go upstairs to this meeting hall, and there was a radio on in a drugstore just below. And on that radio, we heard the word that the Pearl Harbor had been bombed. And then the next morning in chapel, I’ll never forget Dr.Edman’s statement that he hoped...that he had hoped that it would not come to this, that our lads and lassies would be called into...into the service, and it was a very emotional time. And then we saw, one by one, our classmates go, and then Sandy [Sanford] Schulert, of course, was the first one to...to lose his life, and his widow was here, Pat [Patricia] Flack Shulert, and she’s a beautiful person. But it was hard to see them go.
SHUSTER: Were there activities or events on campus related to the war?
JONGEWAARD: Not too much. Later on, of course, they had the ROTC, but I know we changed our...our social events, like the Washington Banquet. One year we gave that up to send money to Finland [Finland was invaded by the Soviet Union in 1939]. The next year we were fighting them. [laughs] And definitely the activities on campus were toned down a lot, and we had special prayer meetings.
SHUSTER: I noticed that you were a member of the Pre-Med Club and that were involved in some kind of blood donor campaign.
JONGEWAARD: Yes, yes. I had to chair that, and the embarrassing thing was that I couldn’t give blood.
SHUSTER: Why was that?
JONGEWAARD: [laughs] Because I was anemic. I never did have [laughs] a high enough blood count or hemoglobin, but I...I was in charge of that. See, I...I inherited the chairmanship of it when the chairman...I forget who it was...got drafted. And they were short of...[laughs] short of people, so I...I inherited the chairmanship of that.
SHUSTER: Was it difficult organizing a blood drive or was it...?
JONGEWAARD: No, no. People were very responsive. And we...in our Pre-med Club meetings, why we would have med students come and speak to us. I remember John Stam...ca...younger John Stam, not Uncle...Uncle Peter’s son, John, came and spoke to us. And there were some other...Gordon Searle [?] was another one who came and spoke to us. And I...we were...we wanted to do whatever we could.
SHUSTER: How did the war affect...were there other ways that the war affected life on campus?
JONGEWAARD: Well, I...I can’t think of specific things other than that we were very conscious of it and...and wanting to hear news. And of course, in our day, we didn’t have radios and things around like people do now, so we were very anxious to hear news. And then, of course, with my family being the Lord knew...only knew where [laughs], I was concerned about that and about missionaries in...in different places. But I can’t recall anything.... Well, prayer meetings were very meaningful. I went to student prayer meeting too, as often as I could. I worked in the dining hall and....
SHUSTER: You mentioned that there were special prayer meetings because of the war. What...what were they like?
JONGEWAARD: Well, we...I think there was more of an emphasis. We had the dorm prayer meetings, and then there was a student prayer meeting, and we prayed specifically, and in our Foreign Missions Fellowship prayer meetings, and....
SHUSTER: Were these every day?
JONGEWAARD: No, no. I...I think that there was just more emphasis on...on the war and...and special needs.
SHUSTER: How often were they?
JONGEWAARD: I...I believe they were just at the regular stated times, but there was a be...a lot better attendance.
SHUSTER: How many people came?
JONGEWAARD: I’d have a hard time.... I know the revival affected that a great deal. Prayer meeting attendance went from about fifty to several hundred then.
SHUSTER: Why don’t you describe the revival a little bit.
JONGEWAARD: The revival was a very, very meaningful time. That was my senior year.
JONGEWAARD: ‘43. And Reverend [Harold P.] Warren from Michigan was the speaker, and I went...I always went to all the...whenever we had special meetings, I always went to all of them in the mor...in the afternoo...morning chapel, of course, and then the evening services. And he kept hammering away at the same need for us to get straight with the Lord, and if there were any...there were...he talked about grass-grown paths between...like between friends and between us and the Lord, where there were things that needed to be straightened out. And I said to my roommate, who I was living with...the Asps at the time, out on...on Santa Rosa, and I said to my roommate...I said, “I feel like I could scream if he doesn’t change the...the [both laugh] topic.” Well, I don’t know if it was a Thursday morning or Friday morning that Dunc [Duncan] Stewart got up. And Dr. Edman said, “Duncan Stewart has asked for time just to...to speak to the...the student body.”
SHUSTER: This was during chapel?
JONGEWAARD: This was during chapel. And this was before Reverend Warren was going to speak. And he got up and he confessed that he had taken the track team to track meets on Sunday and used...used College vehicles, of course, which was against the rules anyway, using any vehicles. We were not allowed to ride cars or anything. But....
SHUSTER: That was because of rationing, or was that a College rule?
JONGEWAARD: No, it was just a College rule. We just...we were...we had to have special permission to ride in a car, unless it was a pouring rain and somebody offered us a ride. [laughs] They just didn’t have cars on campus, unless a person needed it for a job and then they were....
[the audio level of the recording drops suddenly and then resumes]
...accept rides from people unless there were certain, you know...a certain need for it. But anyway, he had...he confessed that he had taken some of the members into various track events to run and knew that this was against Wheaton policy, and it brought...it brought shame to Wheaton as well as to the student body. And he confessed and asked for forgiveness. And Dr. Edman said, “I urge every one of you just to consider his own or her own life. Don’t be thinking about anyone else, and let the Lord speak.” And there was...it was quiet. And then, one by one, students started getting up and asking forgiveness and confessing things that pertained to the whole body as a...or rel...or class acti...some...something that might have happened in class, or cheating, or...or some conflict that they had with another student, or something. And this...this kept on. And I...we lost all track of time. Nobody...nobody went, nobody moved. The first time I even finally...I glanced at my watch it was 3:30 in the afternoon. And nobody had gone for lunch or anything. And it kept on until just about suppertime, and then Dr. Edman said, “We want to continue this, but feel we should break for supper.” Dr...Pastor Warren...I believe he did not speak that day, but the Spirit was really working. And we...we went and had supper, and students were making things right with each other and with profs and...and we came back and were there until I don’t know how late at night, eleven or midnight. And then it went on the next morning...next day. And I never felt so right...just the cleansing of the...of the Holy Spirit. It was a beautiful time. And then it spread into...Moody was having experiences like that, and...and there were...of course, there always are those who are...who resist. And there were some, even at that time.
SHUSTER: How do you mean resist?
JONGEWAARD: Well, they...they didn’t...they didn’t respond, and...and, you know, they just kind of belittled it, and...and...but they were...they were far....
SHUSTER: Were they students on the campus?
JONGEWAARD: Students, yeah. Some of the students, yeah. I remember sitting not very far from me was a girl that we prayed for for years and years. She was Christian Scientist, but since she lived in Wheaton, she attended. And many, many, I don’t know, students prayed for her. I don’t know if she ever was saved, or not, but we had a real concern. And then, we had...our prayer meetings just mushroomed. I mean, they had prayer...prayer meetings in the...in the dorms and everywhere. They were just a beautiful time of growth, and gospel teams, and all. There was just...there was just a whole new spirit on campus.
SHUSTER: You mentioned that you participated in gospel teams.
SHUSTER: Why don’t you describe a typical gospel team trip or meeting.
JONGEWAARD: Well, Johnny Thorne was one of the main ones. I went with John Thorne, and he’d come and pick me up in the car, and there were...there’d maybe be a couple of others who would change. But Johnny and I were the main ones. We went out to Winfield, which was a little chapel out there, and he’d lead the service and singing, and I would play the piano. And then I’d teach a Sunday school class, and he would teach a Sunday school class. And then we’d come back...get back to the campus for lunch.
SHUSTER: So it wasn’t street corner evangelism?
JONGEWAARD: No. I was not involved in that. I...I don’t know whether there was much of that, but there were students that went into Chicago. There were many that went out to Mooseheart. I filled in a few times there, and I thought, oh, these ones that come out here really have to [laughs] have a special gift for reaching these kids, because they were hard as nails.
SHUSTER: Mooseheart was...
SHUSTER: ...an orphanage, or a...?
JONGEWAARD: Well, it’s a...it was a home for...yeah, for other orphans or for children displaced from their homes. It was in...was it Aurora or Elgin? Anyway, it’s in the area. I think it’s still functioning. And they...whole groups of students would go out there. I think they...I don’t know if they took a bus load or they took several large groups of them out to teach class, and they went every Sunday. But sometimes when someone couldn’t go, then I had substituted. And I sat in front of a group of girls that totally ignored me [both laugh], no matter what I did to show interest in them. I thought, “Lord, what I do know?” [both laugh] It just...it...it...I had been sheltered so much here at Wheaton that I needed to put to work the things that I had learned. And it was like a baptism of cold water. [both laugh]
SHUSTER: I see from your yearbook you belong to the Boethalli....
SHUSTER: Boethallian Society.
JONGEWAARD: Yes, those were the lit. societies, and....
SHUSTER: Why don’t you talk about that a little bit, how you....
JONGEWAARD: That was...that was a really educational part. They...the literary societies were...they took the place of sororities, and...and there was great competition to encourage the girls to join, I mean, but there’s no secret society. There were times when we had...put on programs, and we had our...each had our little po...poster box of where we’d advertise the next program. We’d have a theme, and there would be music, and there would be extemporaneous speeches. There’d be a humorous skit. There’d be a recitation. There’d be devotions. And, you know, put together, a whole program around a theme. And I enjoyed participating in that, and would...had different parts...different things to do...and sometimes nothing, just going and hearing the rest of them, but I enjoyed that very much. And then they would have their social times, when they...Bows [Boethallian] and Arrows [Aristonian], that was the corresponding men’s society. And they would get together have the lit. parties.
SHUSTER: What were they like?
JONGEWAARD: Well, it was just social evenings where we’d play games.
SHUSTER: Like, what games would you play?
JONGEWAARD: Oh, they would invent relays, or guessing games, or mind games, or...I was trying to think.... [pauses] Never....
SHUSTER: Things like charades, or...?
JONGEWAARD: Yes, things like that. Sometimes they’d have it as a...as a marathon [laughs]...marathon, but doing...doing strange things like using finger nail scissors, which are curved, to cut through a long piece of material, and they’d invent a lot of things. We had a lot of fun, and we had...didn’t play kissing games. We didn’t play [both laugh] the kind of things that most people do nowadays. Of course, cards were not...were not allowed, and we had taken a pledge about that. But we enjoyed our social times. And The Tower concerts, too. We enjoyed them. The Tower concerts were put on by the junior class to raise money for their yearbook [called The Tower]. Our class got very ambitious, and we had John Charles Thomas [operatic baritone who performed between the 1920s and 1940s], and we had the Cossack...Don Cossack Chorus [that specialized in traditional Russian music], and we had people who really required a lot of money, and when it came time to graduate, we were in the hole. [Shuster laughs] And our chairman, our president of the class, Leroy Weber, wrote a very poignant note, using the Scripture in Luke. “‘What...which of you when he sitteth down [both laugh] to build a tower doth not count the cost whether he shall have sufficient to finish it.’ [Luke 14:28] Each of us is going to have to come up with fifteen dollars before we graduate.” [both laugh]
SHUSTER: So, you brought in outside performers, and....
JONGEWAARD: We brought...we brought in outside talent, but I think they have this now.
SHUSTER: Yeah, and they’re....
JONGEWAARD: You know, they have...they bring in outside talent.
SHUSTER: So you ran up...so it was in the red...
JONGEWAARD: We were in the red. [laughs]
SHUSTER: ...instead of actually raising money, yeah.
JONGEWAARD: So we had to pay...pay extra for our Tower and pay extra [both laugh] to get out of school.
SHUSTER: How important...you mentioned the literary society was educational. What do you mean by that?
JONGEWAARD: I feel it was important in helping us to learn various ways of expressing ourselves, and...and poise in...in front of people, because they would have extemporaneous speech too, where they’d give you a topic, and you had to get up and speak on it. And...and there would...there was a critique always at the end. Someone critiqued you.
SHUSTER: Was it polite or candid?
JONGEWAARD: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It would be humorous, a lot of the time, but it was also helpful, that critique. We...we had a good time.
SHUSTER: [pauses] I noticed in the yearbook too that the society held a...literary society held a style show. What was that? Do you recall?
JONGEWAARD: Well, sometimes they would...would put on a style show. Sometimes it’d be a for-real style show, and sometimes it’d be, you know, just a crazy one, where...
SHUSTER: A humorous one?
JONGEWAARD: ...where you’d wear.... [pauses] I...I ca...I can’t come up with the...the names of the things now, but there would be humorous as well as...as real style. Sometimes we’d do evening...evening....
SHUSTER: What is a style show?
JONGEWAARD: Style show where different ones would model evening dresses, or different types of formal wear.
SHUSTER: A fashion show.
JONGEWAARD: Yeah, fashion show. Yeah, fashion show.
SHUSTER: Now was that for all the women on campus, or just for the club...
JONGEWAARD: No, no...
SHUSTER: ...just for the society.
JONGEWAARD: ...just our...just our own group. Yeah, just our own group. Just our own society. There were the eight, eight lit. societies. Ladies [Ladosian] and Knights [Naitermian], and my husband was a Belt. And there were Belts and Eels. Bo...that’s Aelioian and Beltionian. And...and there were Celts and...Celts and.... Oh my, what were the ladies? Phils...Phils [Philalethean] and Celts [Excelsior]. [laughs]
SHUSTER: Would different literary societies attract different types of people? Were they known for...?
JONGEWAARD: Yes, definitely. Definitely.
SHUSTER: What were...as far as the women’s societies, what...what types of people gravitated to the different...?
JONGEWAARD: Well, the Eels were more of the literary...I mean, really, more serious-minded and more educationally, academically, probably a little bit higher. Bows and...Phils were [laughs]...I...I don’t like to give any misunderstanding, ‘cause they’re...they really were not all that bad, but if you...if you talked about a group that partied more [Shuster laughs] or went into more shenanigans, it would be the Phils and Celts. And the Bows and...and Arrows, and Ladies and Knights, they were moderate, kind of in-between, people who were interested in social things, but not extreme.
SHUSTER: Was there one club just for athletes, or that athletes...?
JONGEWAARD: Oh, there were other...there were athletic groups, too.
SHUSTER: But I mean as far as literary societies, yeah.
JONGEWAARD: No, no, not literary society. No. They had the athletic groups, and I did play. I played soccer and I played hockey. I had power, but no speed. [laughs] I was the fullback in one and goalie in the other. [laughs]
SHUSTER: I know on a form in your file, you’d mentioned that...when y...when you were leaving Wheaton, you cherished the spiritual training.
JONGEWAARD: Very much so. Very much so.
SHUSTER: Do you recall what you meant by that?
JONGEWAARD: Well, it...the Bible courses I had from Jim Graham [James R. Graham, Jr.]. He was formerly a missionary in China, and I got on his good side the very first day of class. He was talking about the ignorance of the Scripture among most young people. And he said, “I’d...I’d venture to say that there’re not very many of you in here, or if any, that could name the twelve disciples.” And he said, “Anybody.” And I put my hand up, tentatively. And Mary Garfield too. And he said, “Okay, come and write them on the board.” And I’m praying, “Lord, help me.” [both laugh] Well, my Dad...we had learned a lot of this at...at home, and I was able to write them all up. Well, he never forgot me, and I got a beautiful grade. Well, I...I earned it too. I mean, I...and I enjoyed the Bible courses so much. And I enjoyed chapel. I enjoyed prayer meeting. I just soaked up as much as I could.
SHUSTER: Well, I...I promised that we’d just go an hour, which is about now.
SHUSTER: I want to thank you again for your willingness to come in.
JONGEWAARD: You’re very welcome.
SHUSTER: This has been a very, I think, fruitful and interesting session. Thank you.
JONGEWAARD: Thank you.
END OF TAPE