This is a complete and accurate transcript of the tape of the oral history interview of Theodore
Michael Flowers (Collection 431, T3) in the Archives of the Billy Graham Center. No spoken
words which were recorded is omitted. In a very few cases, the transcribers could not understand
what was said, in which case "[unclear]' was inserted. Also, grunts and verbal hesitations such as
"ah" or "um" were usually omitted. Readers of this transcript should remember that this is a
transcript of spoken English, which follows a different rhythm and even rule than written
English.
. . . Three dots indicate an interruption or break in the train of thought within the
sentence of the speaker.
. . . . Four dots indicate what the transcriber believes to be the end of an incomplete
sentence.
( ) Word in parentheses are asides made by the speaker.
[ ] Words in brackets are comments made by the transcriber.
This transcript was completed by Wayne D. Weber in September 1998
Collection 431, T3. Interview of T. Michael Flowers by Paul Ericksen on January 20, 1995.
ERICKSEN: This is an oral history interview of Reverend T. Michael Flowers by Paul Ericksen
for the Archives of the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College. This interview took place at
1:10 pm on January 20, 1995, at the Decatur Bible Chapel in Lithonia, Georgia. Well, Rev.
Flowers when you finished your last interview, and that was five years ago, you had just finished
your education in Scotland and you came back to the Bahamas. What . . . at that point what did
you envision doing as ministry?
FLOWERS: At that particular time I was set to do evangelistic work with the [Plymouth
Brethren] assemblies. But after working in the Bahamas a little while, I really was called upon to
fulfill a promise I made to a friend while we were in Scotland. He came to Canada and he said
to me, "I'd like you to come and visit me in Canada." And we did.
ERICKSEN: Was this a Scottish fellow or . . . ?
FLOWERS: No, Irish. Right. And so he invited me to come to Canada and introduced me to
some businessmen, Mr. Howell Graham. And we had a crusade at the high school [knocking at
the door] . . . my wife. [recorder turned off and on]
ERICKSEN: Okay, you were . . . you were talking about holding evangelistic meetings . . .
FLOWERS: In Ontario, Canada.
ERICKSEN: . . . among young people.
FLOWERS: Yes, and quite a number of them made a profession of faith. So they decided to
bring into being an evangelistic association for the purpose of doing evangelistic work in rural
Canada called the Layman's Committee for Evangelism. I stayed there for two years, visiting
Detroit, Michigan, meanwhile, because of a friend that my spiritual father asked me to see in case
I get to Detroit, the name B.M. Nottage, well known evangelist [clears throat] in the Midwest.
When I got to the Midwest I met a young lady and I always tell the people she fell in love with
me and married me [laughs]. But we became interested in each other and that's how I got to the
Midwest. And we got married in '51. In 1952 of January I was on my way back to the Bahamas
so that she can fill in papers so that I can become an American citizen. I was speaking at Carver
Bible Institute at that time. It is now Carver Bible Institute and College, right up the road here.
And that morning, January 26th, the Lord did something that I never have experienced since and
it is what I call my call to Georgia. Because heretofore I have no settled place as to where I was
going to work. In Detroit B.M. [Nottage] said to me, "Michael, I'm an old man and we'd like for
you to minister here in Michigan. Your wife is already here, a school teacher." I said, "Okay, I
don't know." His brother said the same thing about Cleveland. In Chicago Burley Edwards said
the same thing. And so I said, "Well, I don't know. I'll wait." But that morning on January the
26th I was using Inter-Varsity magazine, His. I suppose you've heard of that. And the Scripture
reading was from Genesis 28 with Jacob cutting out from his brother Esau. So in an unusual way
it happened, I've never experienced that before, but it had a series of questions: What's the
meaning of this passage? Is there a command to observe? Is there sin to avoid? Is there a
promise to claim? and things of that nature. And in an unusual way the Spirit of God seemed to
impress upon me that this is what He would have me do. I was going back home. Of course, I
had no assurance I was going to come back. But He assured me, "I will bring you back to this
place," applying it of course, "And I will not leave you. Thou shall spread abroad to the west, the
east, the north, and the south." [Genesis 28:14,15] And that later developed in what I call as my
kind of slogan, establishing or to see established in every major city of the southeast a testimony.
Now you'll have to understand [clears throat] why I was talking about a testimony. Here in the
United States at that time there was very little work among the Assemblies background Plymouth
Brethren folks in the southeast, no all over the United States, but particularly here since I was
here. And that was my field. And the Lord was faithful. He brought me back. And I said to my
wife when I got back, "Now, honey, the best thing to do is to write to the brothers in Canada and
ask them if they would kind of release me from the engagements because I'd like to get a job, pay
off the indebtedness that we have, and get . . . go to the South." But she thought otherwise. She
really riled me up because said something I just didn't like. She says, "I am working as a school
teacher and I'm making enough to support any two people." And I hit the ceiling, young,
independent, inexperienced. And my father taught me, "If your sister is worth all the gold in the
world never go to her house and tell her you are hungry. But if your brother, if he doesn't have
a . . . a crumb of bread, feel free," he said, "Well, what do you have here. I'm hungry.'" But the
Lord [cleared throat] allowed that to happen to teach me a lesson and I'm grateful for it. Since
then I've had the experience of talking to scores of young men and sharing with them what it
means to wait on the Lord and how He puts His finger on places in our lives that need to be
explored and brought to life. So . . . like almost like a hidden agenda, you know [laughs]. But
through . . . through the suffering and difficulties He makes it known. So that's how I actually
[clears throat] got started and settled to be in Georgia.
ERICKSEN: What kind things did you learn while you were up in Canada as part of the
Layman's Committee that became part of your practical education?
FLOWERS: Well, there were many thing I learned. The first thing I learned was that people are
very religious and they have traditional things that they follow. And just as the Lord Jesus Christ
said, "They do not follow the Word. They follow their own tradition and by their own tradition
they make void the Word of God." [Paraphrase of Mark 7:13] I learned that most of the people
[clears throat] in that . . . that particular area, mountain area . . . area in Ontario, they . . . some of
them were from Sweden and different parts and they were very, very reserved. And there was no
clear presentation of what I call a gospel message. There was the idea of being good and doing
good and they were very nice. I mean, they were nice people. But you see, I believe when the
gospel is preached the Word of God must go forth and the people must be made conscious that
they are alienated from God. And they have no . . . no claim on Him, never mind what your
mother did or you learned on catechism or that kind of thing. There . . . there was no merit in
these things whatever. And so we . . . I came straight down the line: "We've all sinned. There is
salvation for all," and . . . in . . . instead of talking about salvation with a thought of theological
interpretation, you know . . . you know, I just talk about "There's a way back to God He has
made through the death of His Son and that's the only way and that's why Jesus Christ could
make the claim, 'I am the way, I am the truth, I am the light.' [John 14:6] There's no use feeling
embarrassed about it. God loves you. God want's to save you. The invitation has come." And
the amazing thing is some of them responded and the young people especially. It was . . . it was
revolutionary to see the way they responded. Now the problem came with envy or jealousy from
some of the ministers. After this the young people been released from the ravages of sin are now
enjoying the liberty in Christ Jesus, some of them begin to raise issue, Well, [pauses] argument
for argue . . . sake of argument is not my line. My contention is preach the Word. "If you hit,
you're hit. If you hit and want to do something, let's do business. If not don't bother me. I'm
gone. I'm a hero, you see." Well, that was some the things I learned. But [clears throat] in . . .
in learning that I also learned how the enemy worked. You know the Lord Jesus told the parable
of how Satan snatched the seed away. [Mark 4] And I was boasting that I'm was sowing the
incorruptible seed, but I noticed and I observed how some people because of fear, some people
because of family ties, they saw the truth, they wanted to accept it but they didn't. It's a terrible
thing that happened to us as people.
ERICKSEN: How did the parents of the young people respond to the . . . seeing their kids . . .
FLOWERS: It was the parents . . .
ERICKSEN: . . . wake up?
FLOWERS: . . . I'm referring to just now. The minister but also the parents. I suppose the
minister spoke to the parents and they kind of wanted to cooperate, because, you see, the man
who headed the association was a layman, a good solid Presbyterian, a layman, but he loved the
Lord. Oh, his heart was just passion, you know, for the lost. And they didn't altogether see that.
But right now as I keep in touch with some of them, bless your heart, they're still going on. Not
all of them, of course, but those that I'm in touch with, they're going on. And I accepted that as
God's blessing upon the ministry.
ERICKSEN: What kind of impact did . . . I'm trying to remember which of the Nottages . . .
FLOWERS: B.M. Nottage.
ERICKSEN: B.M. Nottage in Detroit.
FLOWERS: Yeah.
ERICKSEN: What . . . what impact did he have on you?
FLOWERS: He had . . . well, it's impossible for me to . . . to say it. I've adopted him as my
mentor. Gracious man, very humble, and he was forever saying to me, "Michael," at that time,
"There are twenty million," (they didn't call the blacks in those days) . . . "twenty million
colored people in this country and for the most part they are not evangelized. They're religious.
Many of them are intelligent preachers, but not saved. They . . . they can do a lot with words but
the truth of the gospel is not brought to the fore. And so the people have no sense of their
lostness. They simply believe, "Well, I go to church. I help to pay the minister's salary. I do
good to my neighbors," and things of that nature. And he didn't argue with me. Being young
and, oh, I would, right, like to argue about it, but not too in a kind of mood where there is anger
but I just want to find out. And so he said to me, "Well, as you travel keep you eyes open and
your ears as well." And I begin to see what's happening. I went to Tennessee . . . the girl that
lead my wife to the Lord at Wayne University, she was working at Cedine Bible Camp at that
time in Tennessee. So I went to one camp after the another and I begin to meet a lot of people
and we begin to interact. Of course, in those days they were saying . . . my sister-in-law told me
once she says, "They're going to have . . . hang you on a special tree in the South because
[laughs] . . . because of your funny talking self." [laughs] But, I was too crazy to understand
what they were saying. You see, I have no concept of what segregation was all about, because in
the Bahamas it was slightly different. I mean people are people. And in England we have not
experienced the same kind of thing. And in Canada, in that part of Canada people open up their
hands and their hearts to us. So [pauses] B.M. Nottage has impacted me beyond my ability to
express.
ERICKSEN: Now how a man was he when you were there?
FLOWERS: B.M. was in his early sixties, but he had a heart attack and so his whole ministry
style changed. He was a . . . so I heard . . . I didn't know when he was a evangelist . . . he was a
powerful evangelist. But after his heart attack he spent most of his time encouraging the saints.
And I think my kind of concept of what myself was . . . reading in Paul's letter once he says, "In
the last days do the work of an evangelist." [II Timothy 4:5] And I thought I had it. I still think I
have an evangelistic gift. But meeting B.M. and spending my time with people now in Bible
studies and other things, I think . . . I see another part of gift coming out, that is exhortation,
where you'll be doing the teaching and I come and I says, "Now you know this truth. What are
you going to do with it?" My idea is to lift them to the next level, to stimulate them so that
they'll not just live lives, common lives. Because, you see, I think according to Peter, "We are
saved to show forth the excellences of Him who brought us out of darkness into His marvelous
light." {I Peter 2:9] And I must say although I'm perhaps the foremost offender I am . . . I am
concerned about what I call the low living of Christians in American today. I . . . I think God has
blessed this country in a marvelous way and I think if we don't be careful materialism is going to
be the death of us. Now there is nothing wrong with materialism. I want to make this [pauses] . .
. what is Nixon [President Richard Nixon] would say, "Crystal clear." Because where I was born
in the Bahamas there were some people who taught that if you were rich you had to be wicked.
Well, you see, I know better and I make sure I that clear the air. There is no such thing in the
Bible that says because you're rich you're going to go hell or God doesn't love you. But at the
same time I think the danger is we can set hearts on riches and by so doing become disobedient
to the Word of the Lord. I'm concerned about that. And right now I'm daily asking God to help
me to get the saints to see the things around them is going to go up tomorrow. They're transient,
they're ephemeral, sshht [makes vaporizing sound], tomorrow, but the things are eternal. And I .
. . I point out to them always, the reason why Moses was such a smashing success is because he
saw Him who is invisible. And we must see beyond America. Right today unfortunately . . .
right today there is an expression, "We're going to save America." I'm afraid of that expression.
I believe we're here to save Americans, not to save America. And again this . . . we may differ
because of my [pauses] . . . what you call the theological outlook from the point of the Second
Coming and eschatology. I don't believe there's going to be any sort of thing of saving of
America. People in America are going to be saved. This is a great country. I've traveled in
places like Africa. I'm going back again in March of this year and all you need to do is to be in
any country for six hours and he says, "Take my back to America." [laughs] But at the same
time I think it's time for us Christians to come back to the Word of God, to find God for what He
has entrusted to us in the way of liberty but the responsibility of the gospel in getting it out.
ERICKSEN: Now without . . . I . . . I want to deviate a little from our chronology. How do . . .
how do you find American Christians respond to you're saying that?
FLOWERS: Well . . .
ERICKSEN: Or what are the different responses, 'cause I'm sure there are more than one?
FLOWERS: . . . yes, yes, I find that [pauses] for the most part the people that I talk to about this
they are concerned about me . . . me . . . me. I . . . I'm not so sure I'm buying into many of the
Evangelicals [pauses] teachings today. I . . . I'm concerned about it. I am . . . I am so concerned
about it I said to a friend recently, "I'm almost afraid to talk about it. Otherwise I'd be
misunderstood." Not that I care 'cause that's . . . that's never a part of my problem. I only want
to know that I'm grounded in the Scriptures. See [pauses], we can become so involved in trying
to save America that we forget that saving America doesn't mean that we are tied into God. I
mean, I want to make that crystal clear. And I have nothing wrong against . . . I see nothing
wrong is saving America. That's not my mission! My mission is to reach men and women with
the Word empowered by the Holy Spirit. And then let us live lives that will cause the world
outside of Christ to look on us and . . . well, "Who are these folks?" Good Americans. We love
our country. We're loyal. We're faithful. But God must be first. I want God's approval first of
all. Some people are not looking for that so I don't buy into the other thing because my
contention is . . . . You see, right now . . . right now I have in my . . . in a . . . in a . . . I took out
my wallet just a few weeks ago but someone has a three dollar bill of Clinton [President Bill
Clinton] and what I would call derogatory things on it. Now, you see, I'm against that. See my
philosophy is: Clinton is the President of the United States and I don't mind what a wicked man
he is. That has nothing with my responsibility to pray for him. We're not seeing that. I'm not
concerned with somebody being a Republican or a Democrat. I see them as men. And men
without God are men who needs Him. I don't mind what stripe you wear. See now, you're
talking to what I would call maybe a rebel or a radical because I want to be loyal to my
government, I want to obey the Scriptures, I want to walk according to truth and I take sides with
only one person, Jesus Christ. And I . . . I think we need to be careful lest we put God on the side
and say, "Let me save America." Now remember, I want America to be what she's always been.
I would like for us to get back to what the people call, "American before I knew America." But
again, if I believe in the prophetic word, if I believe in some of the things the Lord Christ Jesus
has say and Paul, "Wicked men and seducers are going to get worse and worse deceiving and
being deceived." [II Timothy 3:13] In the midst of that Paul says, "Cont . . . make contact with
your congressman." I . . . that's true. I'm not saying . . . . Sure, call on him. But listen what he
[Paul] says: "Preach the Word." I . . . I . . . I . . . I . . . "Be instant in season, out of season,
reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering." [II Timothy 4:2] I'm looking for a group of
Christian men and women who are going to stand tall without being arrogant, without being . . .
(how can I say it?) [pauses] rude. And yet say what you have to say without any thought of spite
or vengeance but reflect in all you do the Lord Jesus Christ. I'm a rebel. I suppose I might as
well tell you that so you with gather that [laughs], but the kind of rebel that is concerned about
being subject to the powers that be. The reaction I get is the opposite. But again I don't . . . as I
said I don't pursue anything to make a point. I just declare what I have to declare and say,
"Okay, uddy you make your decision but be sure you magnify the Lord Jesus." Let's . . . let's put
it this way. Let's . . . let's talk about the black situation, the black situation. Well, you see we
talk about black . . . black . . . black . . . black as if there is virtue in it. My contention is if God
made me black that's His problem. I don't have to solve that. If God made you white and you're
not satisfied, that's your problem. I don't have to solve that either. [laughs] But I know one
thing: If I believe what I say I believe God is saying to me, "I created Paul, I made him in my
image." I say, "God I don't like him." God says, "Too bad. I love him. What are you going to
do about it?" Now if I have any sense I'll agree with God and that's what I'm doing. [laughs] I
am agreeing with God and I'm saying to people, "Look . . . look. God . . . ." B.M. Nottage
taught me this, "God is a God of variety." All kind of flowers but we love them. We don't
despise a black dog or a black car. No. Just a variety of colors. Now what makes me me? It's
not my color. It's not a . . . it's not an outward thing. It's an inward sort of thing. And so I'm
saying to our black folk, "Forget all this foolishness about blackness. Aren't you glad . . . aren't
you . . . aren't you glad that you're a man created in the image of God?" "Aren't you glad that
God has made of one blood all the nations of men to dwell upon the earth?" I . . . I'm not
concerned about that. Now, I'm not saying that there are not cultural differences. I'm not talking
about . . . about that at all. To me they are secondary issues. I want to be on the cutting edge in
the area of primacy. What's prime? What's important? What's priority? That's where I stand.
And because of that I couldn't be a popular black preacher, because . . . . But I'm not trying to
satisfy them. But . . . I bet they can . . . they'll never be honest to say . . . that they'll never be
able to say, "I don't love 'em or I don't . . . or I say anything against them." Not . . . not about in
their character. I'm trying to say, "Look at the cross. You come to the cross, you identify with
the cross, you must die. Die to your whiteness, to your blackness, to your Presbyterianism,
Brethrenism. You must die to all that." And so the cross must be brought back into our life.
And because of that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. [2 Corinthians 5:19]
What's the buzz word in Evangelical circles? Reconciliation. It's only a word. Why don't we
practice it? [Flowers makes raspberry sound] See what I mean? Because if there's reconciliation
going to happen between us, both of us must learn to say yes to God. Now that's what they
taught me at Moody [Moody Bible Institute] when I attended summer school there in 1953.
Reconciliation stripped of all it's theological jargon simply mean in every situation you say yes to
God. Let's work that out. You know what will happen? We'll have a changed America. You
. . . you work it through. If we are prepared to say yes to God when He puts [slaps hands] His
stamp on something the whole situation will change, because I must not see you as an enemy.
You must not see me as enemy but as the creation of God. And if we are the children of God, if
we are indwelt both of us by the Holy Spirit, then I'm sure the Holy Spirit in you will not despise
the Holy Spirit in me. See . . . see how crazy I am. [laughs] So . . . so you have to forgive me.
But I'm . . . I'm . . . you're talking about these things and while I feel deeply about them, there's
no crusading about them, crusading about them. Well, just last week I was at Toccoa Falls
speaking to the Presbyterian PEF workers. I've been speaking with them for years, teaching
seminar on how to communicate the gospel in the Black community. We're friends. I say some
of these things to them. "Well, this is Crazy Mike." Well, I know that. I mean, crazy Michael.
But you see there's not bitterness, there is no . . . because what I'm saying, think about it, ponder
it, allow the Spirit of God [slaps hands] to help you integrate these words with your own
thoughts.
ERICKSEN: Now how did you . . . going back to your call to come here to Georgia, how did
you decide to go to Savannah, cause that's were you started?
FLOWERS: Yes. We started in Savannah because as I said earlier I lived in Detroit, Michigan.
And news go around that I was going South. There was a man who had a camp by the name of
Julius Dennis, near Beaufort. And it's through our meeting with him we established the first
meeting in Beaufort, South Carolina, because some people got saved and he was working at the
shipyard. He couldn't look after the Bible class so I said that "My little old car, if it will take me
to Beaufort, I'll do it as long as the car would run." And that's how Beaufort came into being.
But this chiropractic . . . chiropractor, the doctor, he knew Mr. Dennis and he . . . Mr. Dennis . . .
he wanted Mr. Dennis to send someone to Savannah to start a black Youth for Christ. And
Brother Dennis told him about me and he asked me if I would consider it. And at that time my
wife was expecting our first child and so was his wife. My daughter came first and she was the
girl. His daughter came afterward and they were expecting a boy. And so they gave us all the
things they bought for the boy, you know, saying, "Now when you meet someone with a first
boy, you give it to them." But in the conversation he made known to me that he heard I was
going South and would like to know if I would do it. So I said, "Gladly, anyplace, anywhere I
can get an opening to communicate the living world . . . Word to the lost world count on me."
And that's how the contact was made for us to go to Savannah. And going there the father got
me (there were five chiropractors in the family) . . . got me into the prison. I got into some
homes to preach the gospel, boy's homes, you know, prison really, but you call them boy's . . . .
ERICKSEN: Like juvenile homes?
FLOWERS: Yes. And that's how I got to Savannah and I stayed there for twenty-seven years
until I came here in 1982. We saw two Assemblies, one in Beaufort and one in Savannah. And
meanwhile we're working in Savannah, we got the one Anderson started so we've been on the go
lately. But right now we're working on our eighth in Marietta. If that becomes a reality, if I
don't go home that will be number eight.
ERICKSEN: So you'll move out there?
FLOWERS: No, I don't think I'll move out there. What we'll do, we . . . we have enough
available manpower here for me to stay around and let the younger men . . . once we get
everything established.
ERICKSEN: So you . . . you had meetings. You were able to get into the prison and into the
homes, and . . . . How did you go about . . . how did you go about starting to build sort of the
foundations of what became the chapel there?
FLOWERS: Through Bi . . . home Bible study.
ERICKSEN: Okay. And did that come through the . . . the chiropractor?
FLOWERS: No . . . no, not . . . not in Beaufort.
ERICKSEN: Oh, okay.
FLOWERS: His . . . his connection put me in touch with the man who owned the camp.
ERICKSEN: Okay.
FLOWERS: And the camp . . . the . . . the fellow who owned the camp, Brother Julius Dennis,
he lived in Charleston. The camp was in Beaufort, South Carolina. So at that time before they
built the bridge Beaufort was a hundred fifty miles round trip from Savannah.
ERICKSEN: Okay.
FLOWERS: Now that the bridge is built it's shorter. But that's the connection. See, I went up
every Tuesday night for Bible study in Beaufort and the Lord gave help. They were people who
heard that they could be saved and know it. And they were saved. And although there was a
ripple of opposition it didn't mean very much because nobody bothered. And that's how they . . .
the chapel became a reality in Beaufort.
ERICKSEN: What . . . what . . . now what kind of opposition would it have been from church
leaders or . . .?
FLOWERS: Yes, well, they . . . they . . . they . . . they started things by saying, "Well, he is
leading our people to . . . to do things differently from the way we do it." And I said, "I believe
in biblical Christianity. That's my forte, biblical Christianity." And I said to them, "I'm trying to
follow the Scriptures. If I'm wrong and you are prepared to sit and help me, I'd listen. If not,
please leave me alone." That's it. No more from them, because . . . I mean, as I said, I'm not
interested, you know, in mixing it because I'm here as a witness. I am here as a . . . I'm a stranger
and I'm a missionary. I'm . . . I'm . . . I'm . . . I'm from the Bahamas. I . . . I . . . I don't know all
your cultural blah-blah. I don't know . . . but I am here to do what I know best: To communicate
this Word to men. If they would hear, okay. If not, I'm in the good, I'm in the footsteps of
modeling Jesus. "See, I've told you but you won't listen, so [slaps hands] . . . ." It didn't bother
me, but I wanted to please Him. I wanted to make sure that my life was always in in alignment,
it is the best that I can. We are limited, we are human, we make all kind of foolish mistakes
sometime. But that's why He said, "If you sin, confess your sin. He's faithful and just to forgive
us our sins and to cleanse from all unrighteousness." [I John 1:9]
ERICKSEN: What kind of time period did it cover from the time you began working in Beaufort
until there was a chapel with leadership that you could . . . ?
FLOWERS: Well, Beaufort never really had the leadership we wanted it to have. We were
working with the poorest of the poor in Beaufort, but [pauses] a few of them were faithful. I was
going to say, the tragedy with Beaufort, but it isn't a tragedy. The truth is we had more qualified
women than men. And my concept of the ministry, that leadership in the church should be in the
hands of men. So [pauses] we struggled with this and God sent us some help. Not as we would
liked to have see it in Beaufort to begin with, but we did get a few men from the services. And
one of them is still there now. He's . . . he's . . . he was a marine then and now he is a captain
retired. But what . . . the way we worked it we had a Bible study every Tuesday night and every
Sunday I went over there to preach. Early in the morning my wife had to get up and get breakfast
and have our dinner ready because after the service on Sunday we would stay in the chairs [?]
and have dinner and he and I would go to the marine base. Now what he did during the week, he
would make contact with men and he would tell them about what we were doing. And if there
were any difficult cases you put it down, it says, "Okay, when Brother Flowers comes on Sunday,
we'll visit you." So at least two or three people we visited every Sunday. Some of them got
saved, went to California, went to different places and are still going on. And [pauses] Beaufort
is growing now but not like the other Assemblies. There is still the need for some . . . now we
had a good man there, but he had some family problems and so that give us kind of setback. But
apart from that we've . . . we've tried it over and over again. Teach them, teach them, be patient
with them, take time, encourage them when the need be, don't condone sin but help them to get
over it. And when there's need for restoration, restore them, encourage them. We've done that,
still doing that. As a matter of fact, I was in Beaufort two weeks ago and encouraging them to go
on, encouraging them to go on.
ERICKSEN: You're like a Barnabas.
FLOWERS: Well, [laughs] that's what we like to think we're doing. When . . . when he's . . .
when he came and he . . . he saw what was happening he went to look for Paul. And that's what
I'm doing. I . . . I know the different men in the different Assemblies and if they have gifts I
would say, "You know, if you want someone to do some teaching, that fellow is an excellent
teacher. That's his gift. Let him do the teaching." I don't . . . I only teach when there's no one
around. My name is T. M. Flowers and we call it Trouble Making Flowers, so . . . . [both
laugh]. I like to make trouble but not the kind of trouble that would cause you to get angry, just
to get you to see what God has in store for us. In the name of common sense why are we living
here when we could be living there. And it cost him his death to do that. You see what I mean?
So that's the kind of trouble [laughs] I like try to make. But we have some able teachers in our . .
. in our fellowship. Cliff [pauses], he's at Community [Bible Chapel]. We have Ronnie Hart.
He is . . . .
ERICKSEN: Cliff?
FLOWERS: Cliff [pauses] Ice, Clifford [S.] Ice. He is (I don't know if you know of Letters of
Interest) . . . he is the vice chairman of Letters of Interest. That's the Brethren organization. And
he is with Kevin Dyer. He's a board member there. He's an able teacher. He was a school
teacher before he became a Christian. And he had his training primarily with the Navigators and
there was a Bible college. He had took [sic] some classes there. He's an excellent teacher. We
have another fellow who's just gone to Chicago for training and he's going to work with Kevin
Dyer and International Teams. He'll be in London after he finishes his training in three [pauses]
. . . three months time. We have . . . I've made mention just now of Ronnie Hart. He is one of
the leading elders here. He's an excellent teacher. He's related to Sam Hart. Have you ever
heard of B. Sam Hart . . .
ERICKSEN: Yeah.
FLOWERS: . . . and Charles? They're all . . . they're all heart. They all have a heart. [laughs]
But we do have some good teachers. We have a Roy Sixto in [pauses] Anderson. He's an
excellent teacher. He is from Trinidad. Most of our men for the most part were from the islands
and sometimes that . . . that can cause little . . . you know. But again that's where I come in and I
come in to say, "If God has brought you into the fullness of His grace then you must show it.
'Make sure you did not receive the grace of God in vain.' [2 Corinthians 6:1] The grace was
abundant toward us. Be sure it's abundant to those with who you minister." So it's . . . we are
learning. We are learning and the Spirit of God is teaching us that this is the Lord's enterprise.
And we should appreciate the idea that He has chosen us. I mean, think of it, can't even read our
name on . . . on . . . on a postcard when we see it, you know. And yet He has said, "I have chosen
you 'cause I want you to be partners with Me." [John 15:16?] That's the thing.
ERICKSEN: Now when you say, "Most of the men came from the islands" . . . .
FLOWERS: Most of the leaders [pauses], yes. But Cliff . . . .
ERICKSEN: In . . . in the Southeast?
FLOWERS: No, I mean in our group. You see, we work under the aus . . . organization
Southern Gospel Mission Association.
ERICKSEN: Okay.
FLOWERS: But I . . . I call it something else, you see. Spreading God's Message
Authoritatively. That's what we are doing [pauses] authoritatively. That's what SGMA stands
for. The . . . the majority of men, originally, the old men like Nottages and . . . they were from
the islands, Jamaica, the Bahamas, Trinidad. But the younger men are native born or maybe
children of the West Indians who were born here and their outlook is different. Rich Berry at
Southwest, he is . . . was the leader among the Navigators, graduated from Dallas [Dallas
Theological Seminary] about five years ago, has a tremendous work going on here in Savannah.
Excellent teacher. I spoke to him last night. So we think with our own evaluation, without being
heady, we think we are . . . we're going some place, if the Lord . . . if we don't get heady, put it
that way. [laughs]
ERICKSEN: Yeah. Now you mentioned that part of the problem in Beaufort was that you were
working with the poorest of the poor and I presume that the situation was different in Savannah
then.
FLOWERS: Very much. See, [pauses] it . . . here's how I said it to someone, "God brought us
right down to rock bottom. In Savannah it was a step up. In Community [Bible Chapel?] in
Atlanta it was the top." So in other words we only have a . . . we had a few college students in
Savannah. Here at Community [unclear] you've got all around masters . . . masters . . . masters.
So we feel God was doing that to teach me some things. And we're . . . we're excited about that.
We're excited about that. See, I . . . I . . . I keep reminding God of His promise. You have
promised that You are going to give me the land. I go back to Psalm 119 and verse forty-nine:
"Sure, Lord,You intend to keep Your promise, don't you." I mean, [laughs] that's the only way I
know to . . . to talk to Him about it. There are some people, for instance, where we're sitting
now, fifteen acres for a resource center. [pauses] People that tell me how I should go but I don't
know, so I am saying, "God is going to raise up among you men someone who will carry it on."
Now my son [T. Martin Flowers] has just been made president of the SGMA. I thought I had a
brochure. Maybe I did. If I have one I'll let you have it. And he has his masters in business
administration but he's also a major in the Army. I don't know that. I don't want to put my hand
on him because he's my son. I . . . I . . . you see in . . . in my thinking relatives doesn't come in.
It must be God's choice. This must . . . that's way I think, you know. And yet I wouldn't
necessarily just, you know, like that [?]. We have the men and we're having our first seminar on
the twenty-sixth to the twenty-eighth, our very first seminar. And the fellow who's coming to
teach, he's an excellent teacher and I believe this may be God's timing to put things together for
us so we can see the big picture. And the man with the qualification will come in under the
umbrella of SGMA and [unclear]. And I'm . . . I'm saying to them I'm ready to serve. The Lord
said, "Quit tomorrow," I'd quit. But I don't want to quit if I have health and strength, you know.
As long as I can communicate this Word and people listen, hey man I'm gone [laughs], you
know. But at the same time those who are qualified to take the top position in the leadership, I'm
vacating [unclear].
ERICKSEN: So could you talk about what happened in Savannah?
FLOWERS: Yes.
ERICKSEN: Let's take each of the churches and kind of work our way through them.
FLOWERS: Yes, all right. Well, in Savannah [pauses] we didn't do very much with the
churches. We . . . we met the ministers. And at that time they were concerned, supremely
concerned in visiting the schools.
ERICKSEN: Okay.
FLOWERS: And they got permission to visit the schools. And I was of the opinion because of
the problems they were having it . . . it's now full blown now. Call it crime. I don't know what
you called it then. [laughs] We were having some problems, you see. And I thought these
ministers were going to the schools so that we can present these people with the way out. Instead
the leader . . . of course, since I was new I was a member of the association and I was new, I
wanted to learn the ropes, I just sat and I listened. But in every school we got into they would say
to the people, "As soon as you reach eighteen, go and vote." Well, it didn't take me long to pick
up what was happening. They were looking for political answers to spiritual problems and I
knew it wouldn't work. Not that I was against people being politicians [laughs]. I mean, I know
better than that. But my contention, I came here to do something else. And so I . . . I went with
them as long as I could take it and one day I said to them, "Well . . . ." I did have an engagement
so it was a legitimate out. I did have an engagement to see someone and I thought it . . . well,
I've never been back. Now, there are some of the ministers in Savannah, we're good friends. But
[pauses] they think I'm preaching some [pauses] foreign message because I don't . . . .
ERICKSEN: It's not relevant to . . . .
FLOWERS: No, the . . . the message I'm preaching has nothing to do with paying your dues and
singing in the choir. That's not my message. I'm not concerned about you . . . if you . . . if God's
given you the voice to sing. That's the gift . . . go out and sing. My concern is to introduce
people to Jesus Christ. And then I expect the teachers will come along and give them instruction
as to how they should behave. Okay? Not necessarily we have the best choir, we have the
biggest choir, we have the largest church. See, I'm not into that largest and that kind of stuff.
I'm interested in knowing "How is your spiritual walk with the Lord?" See that . . . that's where
I differ. "How is you spiritual walk with the Lord?" And so with the men in Savannah we'll
have crusades. We had Tom Skinner there for twenty-seven days once. It was the first time
black and white sat together without any prearranged conditions. They came in and Tom, the
Spirit of God got hold of that man, and he preached and both black and white were saved. But
again [pauses] the hit of the crusade [pauses], the blessing . . . most of the blessing went to the
white people because they came, they were saved. And as a result I was asked to become a
member of the Protestant Ministerial Association. I don't know if I give you the paper. I may
have given you those papers. And it ended up then they elected me to being the president of the
Protestant Asso . . . . I said, "Well, of course." That didn't go too well with me because . . . . I
told them, I says, "Now, I appreciate what you're trying to do and if this will help the situation in
communicating the go . . . good." But you see I . . . I thought I saw something else. I . . . I
thought I saw what I call a kind of duplicity. For instance, we had the meetings on Tuesday, the
ministerial meetings on Tuesday. So I sit and I'd be of the president minist . . . ministerial
association, and yet if I went to the church on Sunday I'll be told to leave. "Well," I said, "I . . . I
don't nothing about that kind . . . ." So I said, "Now, I won't go to the press, I won't say
anything, [whispers] but I won't serve, I won't serve." So we were still friends and we still work
together. [timer beeps] Now the . . . the ministers, the black men in the community, as I said
some of them we were still good friends, but they felt that I was a threat because I was going
down the road they thought . . . .
ERICKSEN: You mean with . . . with the white ministers?
FLOWERS: No, no, no. They . . . they . . . they wasn't against that as much as they felt for
instance . . . let me tell you what I mean. We had two girls in particular who their parents were
members of a church. And they started going with us to our Bible classes and then they were
asked to do certain things. And then they said, "Well, no, we don't do that. We . . . brother
Flowers says, 'The Bible teaches this.'" And, you know, "Let's just . . . just the sort of, you know,
. . . well, let's go down some then, you know." [pauses] And so you're a threat. But there was no,
there was never any anger expressed as far as I can observe. And we . . . we got on . . . . If I met
. . . if I met on the road, "Hi." [pause on the tape and clicking sound]. We . . . we met, we
greeted each other. I hope in a kind of gentlemanly way but there was no, "Hey let's sit and talk.
Let's have lunch together" and that sort of thing, and "What are your plans for the next six
months?" and "What do you hope to do in [slaps hands] your area?" Do you . . . are you making
plans for your vacation Bible school to . . . to teach this and to see . . .?" It was never that kind of
[pauses] relationship, not a kind of growing relationship, just a distant "Hi."
ERICKSEN: Now you . . . you mentioned Tom Skinner. What kind of impact . . . you mentioned
that the white . . .
FLOWERS: They both win?
ERICKSEN: . . . churches got most of the bless . . . or the whites got most of the blessing.
FLOWERS: I think so.
ERICKSEN: Did I understand you right?
FLOWERS: Yes.
ERICKSEN: Okay. What impact did his crusade have on the black churches and on the chapel?
FLOWERS: Yeah. I . . . I . . . it had [pauses] . . . well minimal in the sense I think there were
more white people who responded than black. That's what I mean.
ERICKSEN: Okay.
FLOWERS: For instance, right there are some fellows in . . . in the chapel in Savannah who . . .
one in particular, he was in the Air Force. And after he got saved he fi . . . went back to school,
finished course. He's now an accountant. Okay? So his whole family are now following Christ.
I mean, that's . . . that's one of them. But here's what I mean by the white people got more of it, I
believe. Quite a number of them made a profession of faith. They had Tom on one night at
prime time after the eleven o'clock news. And a very influential lawyer's wife heard Tom and
she called up. I can't think of her full name now, but [unclear] inter . . . interviewed me just last
year. But she called him up and said, "Look it's been a long time since we heard any sense about
this racial situation. Bring that man back." And for two consecutive nights after the first time
prime time, they were listening. And we had many response from them. They thank God for the
sanity of this man and the impact. Now [pauses] some of the white ministers . . . no, some of the
black ministers were not impressed because Tom didn't come in with racism. Tom came in with
Jesus Christ. But they couldn't withstand what he had to say. But they didn't kind of fall for it as
they ought. I always regret that, you know, they didn't say, "Man let's stand behind this man and .
. . and . . . and push him," you know. But they didn't do it. But we believe God fulfilled His
purpose in bringing him in the area and we are glad.
ERICKSEN: Now tell me your impressions of Tom Skinner. He passed away this last year so
he's . . . .
FLOWERS: Yes, he passed away. Well, if you asked me about Tom Skinner I am biased
towards him. I've always introduced him as our champion. I think of about the time when the
pressure maybe almost forced him to talk about blackness more that he wanted to. But [pauses]
to me I . . . I . . . I'm dealing with the man. I'm dealing with his passion. I'm dealing with his
insight and the courage he had to auth . . . articulate the gospel fearlessly. And he did it [pauses]
. . . how shall I say? He did it a contemporary way, something I can't do. But he did it in a
contemporary way and people responded. I always speak of him . . . he spoke at our conference,
in this book, our twenty-fifth anniversary if you look at all the speakers he was there more times
than most of the other speakers [pauses] because the people wanted to hear him. The unfortunate
thing about Tom was, and we saw this when he was down here, that his wife didn't understand
him. And she was the great musician, she's a good friend of ours. I just saw her [pauses] at the
funeral last year when we did. We had a great time together. But I . . . I think that was a stroke
of the enemy to destroy his ministry. Again, this is only one man's opinion. But I think that
[pauses] it fall, it fell flat. It . . . it did have some ripples but there were institution like [pauses]
Inter-Varsity [Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship] who examined the case. You see that's what I
like about Inter-Varsity. They went after it, they examined it and they came out with saying they
don't think it was Tom's fault and that kind of thing. So that my contention is as we go on in life
there are many things happen that perhaps we cannot put our finger on it but at least we can be
generous. We don't have to blast people from A to Z. We can say to them, "I think you've
missed it here, but anyhow [pauses] be . . . because you believe God has called you and you're
willing to humble yourself before God we will encourage you to go on," and that sort of thing.
Now I think, I think, Brother Paul, that's the way we should deal with our situation. I believe we
need to come our against sin and say, "Sorry Bro. You're my brother. You're a member of the
body but that's wrong." On the other hand we don't want to make the person feel that there is no
more hope. See, because in our group, the Brethren, we . . . we put it this way, when you
excommunicate a person, excommunication is done with a view to restore him and that's the way
I feel about it. And Tom, of course . . . remember now I'm not saying that Tom was perfect.
That's not my idea [laughs]. All of us have flaws. But I think as a man to get to know him, I
think there's something about Tom that was admirable and he influenced a lot of people. Now
where most of us miss Tom, we were brought up, especially me . . . we were brought up into
something that if you said "politics" or even something like voting, "Woah! Worldly." But the
Lord had took me all the way to England to change my attitude. So again having gone through it
I can look at some of the people and say to them, "Well, I'm going to give you time to grow up."
"You want to criticize him it's all right, but just remember he's still your brother. Now are you
helping him or are you doing the devil's work?" Don't ever condone sin but help the brother.
Did . . . did Jesus do that to Peter? I think Peter made a monkey of himself after his boast, right?
But the Lord says, "You love me Peter?" [John 21:15] I say, You love me." Okay. [slaps leg
with hand] On the day of Pentecost . . . I . . . I said it once. I wonder how many conferences I've
said, "You know, [pauses] if Peter was alive today and did what he did he would never get to
preach the Pentecostal message. [laughs] Which is true. But you see what God can do. Brother,
let me . . . let me . . . let me ask you a question. Do you think we are exploring as we ought in
His deathlessness the magnificent grace of God especially in our relationship with to one other?
I mean, I'm not talking about Michael and Paul now. I mean in the body. I mean, you know,
now . . . . Now, remember what I said, if something is wrong and it's sin you cannot say it isn't.
Otherwise you'd be a liar. But if the brother in first Corinthians five . . . it was a terrible thing.
A man go to bed with his father's wife. Paul said, "Hey restore the man lest he kind of . . . ."
[wraps table with ring] [Galatians 6:1?] You . . . you see what I'm trying to say?
ERICKSEN: Uh-huh.
FLOWERS: Do you think then that . . . that we . . . we are coming up to our stature to . . . to . . .
to say, "God, you've given us this grace 'and of his fullness have we all received and grace for
grace.' [paraphrases John 1:16] God help me to use it." I mean do you . . . do you think we're
doing that? I mean, I don't know about you. Maybe . . . I . . . I read some of the Christian
magazines. [pauses] I don't know. Please forgive me, but . . . [laughs] I . . . I don't know. I . . .
I can't help but feel that "this sword is for you, Paul." [Flowers makes fierce growling sound]
And I don't think that's what the Bible is teaching. I don't think so. I think the Bible says, "Paul,
come in here, boy. Let me take you to the woodshed." And give me a good dressing down in the
woodshed. But when Paul says, "Brother, I'm glad you spoke to me. The Lord [unclear phrase]
. . . I . . . I . . . I think we should say brother. You're that brother." Now I know sometime the
public ministry may have to take another kind of slot, right? But I don't think a man should be
kicked out and then drum him out as if he had . . . . No, no, no, I . . . . [slaps leg with hand]
That's what grace is for.
ERICKSEN: So how did Tom respond to that kind of encouragement?
FLOWERS: Well, as far a we were concerned, I'm talking about Michael and Tom. We had a
great time. He came and spoke almost every year at our conference. He was helpful to us. If we
didn't have money and in the early days we didn't have money to pay him, he just came and spoke
and "Forget about the pay." And that's why we felt, when the conference was able to invite him
and pay him, we felt it our duty to say to him, "Tom, you've helped us and now we want to help
you." Right now, we support the work and [unclear] because we think Tom had a message for
America. I don't know if know if America go it, but he had a message for America. And I'm
glad that he was faithful.
ERICKSEN: Well, he certainly seems to have an impact on a lot of people, too.
FLOWERS: Yes.
ERICKSEN: A lot of young . . . .
FLOWERS: Political . . .
ERICKSEN: . . . leaders.
FLOWERS: . . . too. Many people in Washington right now, in the field of politics, speaks of
Tom glowingly. I can't go beyond that because I don't know everything, but I . . . I do know . . . I
. . . I thank God for him. And I'm praying that God would raise up some more Tom Skinners.
Let's hope that their lives mark, their . . . their marriage life would be better than his so to speak.
But we need that prophetic voice. We need that prophetic voice. We . . . we had [pauses] a man
like . . . what's the ? [pauses] Torrey. We had [pauses] a missionary fellow there. I just [unclear]
his book. Alliance was the fellow. To . . . To . . . To . . . Tozer [A. W.] and all those men, I . . . I
. . . I think we need more prophetic voices. You folk have the Stephen Olford. I think we need a
balance to this thing. You see, when I was in Scotland a fellow by the name of Bobby Hopkins,
we use to go to preach together sometime. And in his own Scottish way he says, "Now, I know
you folks are going to like this tonight because you Scottish folks have been brought up . . .
Scotch folk have been brought up to accept things only in black and white, and [shouts, slaps
hands] now tonight you can have it in black and white." [laughs] I mean, this was a good time,
you know. But we enjoyed that. It was no kind of . . . you know, but that's Bobby Hopkins.
[both laugh] You got it in black. And I still think there's some truth to that. There's still some
truth to that.
ERICKSEN: Well, we sort of took a side road in talking about Tom Skinner. How did things
change in Savannah from the time you began there and when you left twenty-seven years later?
FLOWERS: I think it has taken a change in that we made an impact in the white community.
We had oodles of friends there. I was, as I told you, a part of the Ministerial Association and so I
had free time for time for daily devotion on television. I had free time for . . . . So I had great
exposure and there were many of them who . . . who showed themselves friendly. They
supported the Tom Skinner Crusade and they were ready to support another one but we couldn't
pull it off because of the date. And right now I have some friends, a . . . a medical doctor by the
name of [pauses] . . . (what's his name? What's the name of the preacher who died from
California? He has the same name. [pauses] I picked up one of his books this morning. I can't
think of it. [pauses] Harold McGee. Dr. McGee. He was so impressed with what he saw us
doing that he built a cottage and the first full week in June of every year for the last twenty years
we have been using that cottage where our leaders meet together for a time of prayer and fasting.
Now when I'd started that, that really was some thing because my community, my association,
groups that I'm associated with, fasting, woo. [Ericksen laughs] But the Lord challenged me
about it and he challenged me in a marvelous way, because I went to the home of one the
[pauses] . . . you know, [pauses] the . . . the . . . the . . . one of the . . . one of the homes, afar . . .
across from where I lived at the Y [YMCA]. And I knocked on the door. And I said to the lady,
"How are you today?" (I've known her before.) I said, "How are you today?" and whatever.
And she said, "Oh, come on in Reverend Flowers." And we started . . . started talking. And I
said, "Well now, how are you going on? You still know whether you're going to heaven or no?"
See my in was, "My name is Michael Flowers, I'm from Detroit, Michigan and I would like to
know if anyone in this family are going to heaven?" [Imitates her higher pitched voice] And she
said, "Reverend Flowers, Rev say ain't nobody know if they are going to heaven." When I heard
it the first time I . . . oh [moans, Ericksen laughs]]. But I went to see her that day and she was
saying to me, "Oh, Reverend Flowers, Rev sure did preach." I said to her, "What was his
message? What did he talk about?" She said, "Reverend Flowers, I don't know but Rev sure did
preach." [laughs] And I went home f. . . . I mean, my wife was in Detroit at that time. I went
home, I mean frustrated. I mean ready to quit. And I stretched out on my bed and I remember
what a friend of mine said. He says, "T.M., man," he says, "there are times you should just read
the Bible. Not to study, just read it and it will have a cleansing affect on you." "Well," I said,
"what do I have to loose?" And I started reading and I came to Matthew seventeen, Jesus on the
Mount of Transfiguration and the disciples in the valley struggling with the demented father
[son]. He came down, healed the boy, and they got . . . went back in their house and one of them
asked, "Why couldn't we cast him out?" [vs. 19] And whenever I am relating it I say to the folks,
"I wish He had only said the first part of what He said because He said this, "Because of you
unbelief." [vs. 20] But instead of stopping there [pauses] He said, "How be it, this kind goeth
not out but by prayer and fasting." [vs. 21] So, what am I suppose to do? And the Lord seemed
to be saying to me, "Now in the community where you live Satan has had his way, his sway for
umteen years, everybody playing church for the most part." Now, I didn't say that some people
were not Christian because nobody [unclear] where you can find some Christian. But by and
large it's . . . it's just church playing. He says, "And he has things the way he wanted. Now if you
think you are to come here in Savannah and shake him out of his nest you are making a great
mistake. But it [wraps table] can be done: prayer and fasting." Nobody wants to do that and I
had a good excuse. The church at that time was in Beaufort a hundred fifty miles away and there
was no church in Savannah. So I keep saying to the folks, "You know God says that . . . . Bill
Pannell, who's now at Fuller [Fuller Theological Seminary], LeRoy Yates in Chicago, we meet,
you know, and we talk. "Yeah, but [unclear] Brother Flowers." I says, "Okay." The time came,
the church was built in Savannah. And Paul Beverly, a white brother, came from the Bahamas,
his parents were missionaries there and I've know him because I go . . . he came to work with us
in Beaufort because it was time for me now to go to Savannah. He's a graduate of Miami
Christian College.
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