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Collection 189 - Mary Goforth Moynan. T3 Transcript.

This is a complete and accurate transcript of the tape of the third oral history of Mary Goforth Moynan (CN 189, T3) in the Archives of the Billy Graham Center. No spoken words have been omitted, except for any non-English phrases which could not be understood by the transcribers. Foreign terms which are not commonly understood appear in italics. In very few cases words were too unclear to be distinguished. If the transcriber was not completely sure of having gotten what the speaker said, "[?]" was inserted after the word or phrase in question. If the speech was inaudible or indistinguishable, "[unclear]" was inserted. Grunts and verbal hesitations such as "ah" or "um" were usually omitted. The transcribers have not attempted to phonetically replicate English dialects but have instead entered the standard English word the speaker was expressing. Chinese place names are spelled in the transcript in the old or new transliteration form according to how the speaker pronounced them. Thus, "Peking" is used instead of "Beijing," if that is how the interviewee pronounced it. Chinese terms and phrases which would be understood were spelled as they were pronounced with some attempt made to identify the accepted transliteration form to which it corresponds. Readers should remember that this is a transcript of spoken English, which follows a different rhythm and rule than written English.

Throughout the interview Van Gorder very brief encouraging comments, many that because they are in the background are unintelligible. They have only been included in the transcript where they are discernable.

... Three dots indicate an interruption or break in the train of thought within the sentence on the part of the speaker.

.... Four dots indicate what the transcriber believes to be the end of an incomplete sentence.

( ) Words in parentheses are asides made by the speaker.

[ ] Words in brackets are comments by the transcriber.

This transcription was made by Kate Baisley, Janyce H. Nasgowitz, and Paul Ericksen, and was completed in April 2000.

Collection 189, T3. Interview of Mary Goforth Moynan by her nephew Robert Van Gorder (and for a later portion of the recording by an unidentified woman, perhaps Van Gorder's wife), apparently recorded between March and June 1980.

[The following introduction sounds like it was being read; the narrator is unidentified. The sound quality of the introduction is significantly better than that of the interview and suggests that the introduction was recorded after the interview.]

NARRATOR: Jonathan Goforth was a famous missionary around the 1900s who went to China and ministered to the Chinese people during the Boxer Rebellion. Born on a farm in Canada, Jonathan Goforth's ambition as a young boy was really to study and become a politician. At the age of eighteen, he was converted to Christianity and immediately became interested in minis...missionary work. After attending Knox College in Canada, he set out for China with his wife Rosalind. The hardships and trials that followed are described in their many books and are now being carried forth in the tradition by their daughter Mary Goforth Moynan. Mary Goforth Moynan travels about the United States, London, France, and now China bringing forth the story of Jonathan Goforth, Rosalind Goforth, their courage, their integrity, and the type of structure that true Christian missionaries are built upon. We're privileged at this time to eavesdrop upon a conversation with Robert C. Van Gorder who is a min...minister in Westbrook, Connecticut, and who is also a nephew of Mary Goforth. In this conversation many of the reminiscences that Mary has about her father, her mother, and her life as a missionary child growing up in China are something that we will all come to treasure as we listen. Mary Goforth Moynan: Remembrances on her mother and her father.

[recording begins abruptly although it sounds as though Van Gorder had already asked a question.]

MOYNAN: I remember he was the one...

VAN GORDER: ...some of his human qualities.

MOYNAN: Yes, laughing was one of them.

VAN GORDER: He liked to...

MOYNAN: He had a wonderful sense of humor. You could hear him laugh a block away.

VAN GORDER: No kidding.

MOYNAN: Yes. Now that's one of the things I remember about him [pauses] very, very well. My husband was the same type, that.... There was a lot of laughter in our home, and I think....

VAN GORDER: Your mother too?

MOYNAN: She was more in the giggly type...

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: ...in a very quiet way.

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: But he was, you know...he would just laugh uproariously sometimes. [Van Gorder laughs] And, yes, there're...there're many memories I have of my father that are...are very precious. And I can say this, Bob, very honestly, and I've often wondered, analyzing the....the...the past. I can never remember my father being angry except in righteous indignation. Now that's a terrific thing...

VAN GORDER: Yes. Well, I [unclear]....

MOYNAN: ...for any child to be able to say about his father...about their father. He was never irritable. I never remember him being irritable. Now Mother was, often at times.

VAN GORDER: Yes.

MOYNAN: And...and life was very trying for my mother. I would never judge her, having eleven children and having a serious heart condition, and...and how she ever got through all she did, you know and losing five children, and...and living in a country that was hostile...

VAN GORDER: Yes.

MOYNAN: ...to them, you see, that...it was very hard on Mother.

VAN GORDER: Oh my.

MOYNAN: But looking back about Father, I remember that when he got angry it would be about something along the line of...in his preaching, you see.

VAN GORDER: Yes.

MOYNAN: And...and he would get angry over sin...

VAN GORDER: Yes.

MOYNAN: ...in certain situations, and...and that kind of thing. But never in a personal home situation. He was always quiet and controlled. Isn't that interesting?

VAN GORDER: That's interesting.

MOYNAN: And...and Mother later.... Now she, I don't remember her being so irritable as she tells about in her books that she was at the beginning. And one of the things that's quoted often to me where she was sitting on one side of a....a window...one of these, you know, paper windows, that you could go like this and stick a hole in...

VAN GORDER: Oh, yeah.

MOYNAN: ...a peephole, you know. And...and Mother was sitting on one side and two Chinese ladies were sitting on the other, and they began to discuss her, and they didn't know she was there. And she tells this, you know. Mother never pulls back from telling her faults. And...but it must have been a dreadful experience, because she'd just lost her first child. That was the...the thing that made it so bad. And as she sat there, they began to talk about her. And they first of all, they went into all her good qualities. And oh, she was a...a wonderful missionary. She was a wonderful preacher, and all this, you know, kind of thing. And then, one of them came out with this, "Oh! But she's got such a temper! If she could only live more like she preaches." [laughs]

VAN GORDER: Oh, no. [laughs]

MOYNAN: Poor Mother! [laughs] She...she said she was ready to go out and give them a piece of her mind, [Van Gorder laughs] but she said she knew it was true, so she couldn't do anything about it. And, you know, women have said to me that really, that they can identify with her. And...and they have gotten so much out of the fact that she has told this, you see. So many other people think that all the missionaries are...just put themselves up on a pedestal and expect to be kept there.

VAN GORDER: Right, I know.

MOYNAN: And that...Mother's not that a bit, and I think that's one of the reasons her books have been so popular and have been such a blessing to people.

VAN GORDER: Would...would she sputter at Jonathan once in a while if she got irritated, and would they have arguments once in a while?

MOYNAN: No. I asked Mother.... See, I came on very late in life. I was the tenth of their eleven children. And I remember asking my mother in later years what she could give that would account for their wonderful relationship, because I remember the...at the... those latter years they did have a wonderful relationship. They were both very strong-minded. But they got along beautifully. They were devoted to each other. There was a beautiful atmosphere in the home for Fred and I. We were the only two left, you see, by this time at the end. And she said this...she said, "Well, first of all, your father was always very much the head of the home." Now that's something, you see, very important.

VAN GORDER: Yes.

MOYNAN: And she said, "In matters of principle he would get his way. But in the little things of life he tried to let me have my way." And not only that, I remember her saying this, she said, "He would go out of his way to do constantly...every day, do little things to please me." Now I remembered this. And it brought real sweetness into the family life and atmosphere. It would...maybe a little gift, or a little surprise of some kind. And there would be much laughter over it. And this kind of thing. And I remember telling this at a big meeting and...and they told me afterwards that (it was a couples meeting)...and they got a lot out of this. [laughs]

VAN GORDER: Good.

MOYNAN: [laughs] Some of the men got some...

VAN GORDER: Sure, yeah.

MOYNAN: ...a point, for once, you know.

VAN GORDER: Right.

MOYNAN: There's so much emphasis on the woman that...

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: ...should be submissive, you know, these days...

VAN GORDER: Sure.

MOYNAN: ...and so on. But they did, they really did have a wonderful relationship.

VAN GORDER: That's great.

MOYNAN: They founded a...a great family. I feel sorry that some of my brothers and sisters seem to have come through that feeling resentful. I have heard their children, some of their children, I don't remember hearing you saying anything...

VAN GORDER: I never have.

MOYNAN: ...but that indicate that they resented being sent to boarding school. And they felt they were neglected, left alone, and sent home to Canada and this sort of thing. Well, I...I just have never had that feeling. In fact one company suggested when I wrote a manuscript and sent it in to them, they said, "We would be interested if you will write a story on your first half of your life and bring out what it cost the children of missionaries. That's what we would like." And I finally, after thinking it over, I said, "I'm sorry. You'll have to get someone else to write that book," because I could easily get it. I could even get it from my own nephews' and nieces' memories that...that they are bitter about, but I never had that feeling. I can honestly say that I...I never had anything but admiration for my father and Mother for being willing to put up with all the hardships of that life in order to do what they felt was God's will for their lives...

VAN GORDER: Yes, and for the children.

MOYNAN: ...that God wanted them to go to China and...and help evangelize China.

VAN GORDER: [louder background noise] It was at one point that Fred and Mother and...and Helen...I don't know if it was a boarding school in China.... I think they were...they were left at one place, and I know Mother was quite lonely [unclear]. I forget where that was, and....

MOYNAN: I don't know.

VAN GORDER: I don't remember.

MOYNAN: Fred and your mother?

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: Helen?

VANGORDER: Yes. I don't know.

MOYNAN: Isn't that funny, I can't remember that.

VAN GORDER: Yeah. And that he and.... Yeah, I'm not...I'm not too clear about it, but I'm just wondering if it rang a bell with you.

MOYNAN: No.

VAN GORDER: Did they have any sort of favorites? Now for instance, you were the youngest and now sometimes the youngest...

MOYNAN: Second youngest.

VAN GORDER: Second...second youngest?

MOYNAN: Yeah.

VAN GORDER: Who was the...who was the...?

MOYNAN: Fred was the youngest.

VAN GORDER: Oh, Fred was the youngest.

MOYNAN: Yeah.

VAN GORDER: Yeah. That's right. Well, did he...

MOYNAN: I'm sure that....

VAN GORDER: ...get spoiled off and the others...

MOYNAN: Yes.

VAN GORDER: ...[unclear] get spoiled [unclear]...?

MOYNAN: Yes. Definitely.

VAN GORDER: And the oldest one...who was the...?

MOYNAN: And oldest was Paul.

VAN GORDER: Oh, the oldest was Paul.

MOYNAN: I felt that Paul and Fred got very special attention from Mother.

VAN GORDER: I see.

MOYNAN: I'm sure it wasn't conscious on her part.

VAN GORDER: No.

MOYNAN: It... it was just part of the times that the boys were much more important than the girls, you see.

VAN GORDER: Oh yeah. Right.

MOYNAN: That was part of it.

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: And so Paul was very important and...to Mother. And she went through some terrible experiences with him [pauses] in...and wonderful answers to prayer that he would have died but for these answers to prayer. And...and then Fred, he was definitely her baby, you see. He was the youngest. And see, I was so close. I was just two years...

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: ...older. And so, quite frankly, I did feel left out many times. But I...I never felt bitter about that. I don't know why people exaggerate some of these things. One thing I remember was that he got to be very good at playing the organ. And I had learned to play the organ so that I could play hymns. But I was never asked to play a hymn. He was always the one [laughs].

VAN GORDER: Ah!

MOYNAN: You know. Well, it's something I think children...I mean people raising children should be very careful of.

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: That I'm telling this...I don't usually talk of it in the media. I never talk of it.

VAN GORDER: Right. Right.

MOYNAN: But it's something that I can see looking back, that...that...that parents should be very careful not to show any...

VAN GORDER: Favorites.

MOYNAN: ...partiality...

VAN GORDER: Yeah right.

MOYNAN: ...between children, because it's something that...that it stays with you and is an unconscious bitterness...

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: ...you know, that's too bad. But....

VAN GORDER: Where is Changte? Changte? Is that the name of a town or what?

MOYNAN: Changte is the name of a city...

VAN GORDER: of a city.

MOYNAN: ...in Honan.

VAN GORDER: In Honan? Honan Province?

MOYNAN: That's where they had their...their first home, first established home in China. And it took them four years before they could get in. They were stoned, they were beaten and driven out. And people hated them and...and...and they believed all kinds of terrible stories of them in...in those years in...in China that you really need to read that, to get the picture of the...of their early years in China...

VAN GORDER: And that's where [?]....

MOYNAN: It was a terrible experience.

VAN GORDER: Yeah. And that's where the graves where you [unclear]....

MOYNAN: Yes. I remember those. They had three graves in...in Changte, and the other two are in two other different places not very far away. I just wish I could get back there...

VAN GORDER: Oh, I'll bet.

MOYNAN: ...to Changte.

VAN GORDER: And one...let's see...and the daughter died of...which daughter died of spinal...?

MOYNAN: That was spinal meningitis. That was just...that was Florence.

VAN GORDER: Florence.

MOYNAN: Yes.

VAN GORDER: And they had to flee? They had to....

MOYNAN: Just when they had to flee from the Boxers. And you know, that must have been a dreadful experience too.

VAN GORDER: Oh yeah. Well, were you with them [unclear]?

MOYNAN: No, I wasn't born till three years later. I was born in 1903, you see.

VAN GORDER: Oh, [unclear].

MOYNAN: And...but it's kind of amusing to think that I just feel I could tell this Boxer story as if I was right there...

VAN GORDER: I'm sure.

MOYNAN: ...because it's all so alive to me because, going to bed at night, you know how kids pester for a story, and I always had to be told one of these Boxer stories, the true stories.

VAN GORDER: Oh, yes.

MOYNAN: And they would tell them to me over and over again. And so that I just could tell them as if I was there.

VAN GORDER: [unclear, laughs]

MOYNAN., And...and they weren't suitable for a bedtime story but, you know, I can realize now that...that left a very strong impression on my heart and mind, that God does answer prayer, that He does take care of his children. And I never got away from that. The biggest lesson I got out of my first eighteen years growing up in China is in Mother's book, How I Know God Answers Prayer. And that was the thing that just made a tremendous impression on me, especially living through that famine of 1920 and seeing what God could do just through one sick woman. I give this as a story that illustrates that God can use anybody if you want Him to use you, even if you're ill.

VAN GORDER: Yeah, was in bed, or something. Yeah.

MOYNAN: Yes.

VAN GORDER: Yeah. Well, that's amazing.

MOYNAN: Yeah.

VAN GORDER: Now, did the Boxers...you said there was some resistance when they were...from their beginning, just to get accepted there. Now were they...

MOYNAN: Oh, yes.

VAN GORDER: ...finally accepted and then the Boxers came?

MOYNAN: Yes. Yes, the Boxers...every.... It was a thing that gradually grew and that...and there's so much that caused it. Like the Opium War, where Britain forced the Chinese to grow opium. And there were other things that began at that time to parcel out China. You know, China was weak militarily at the time, and had no way of defending themselves. But you know, they...they are just like anybody else. They didn't want other countries coming in and taking over part of their country. And so this made them very angry. And....

VAN GORDER: Foreigners. So they just took it out on...

MOYNAN: Yes. We were called "foreigners." And...but this is what all the great powers did.

VAN GORDER: [unclear] Yeah.

MOYNAN: They took part of China. And so really, this Boxer Rebellion is something that can be understood...

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: ...if you analyze the situation, and you can't blame the Chinese too much. But what I...personally I find very hard to condone was book...Pearl Buck wrote a book on (she's a wonderful writer, of course)...but she wrote a book on the Empress Dowager, who was reigning in China at the time, and gave her official edict giving permission to kill all the white people, you see. And...and yet Pearl Buck uses her as almost a heroine in...in one of her books. It was A Chinese Woman, I think it was called. Something like that.

VAN GORDER: Now...

MOYNAN: Oh, I'm afraid [unclear]...

VAN GORDER: did they..they had to flee to Shanghai...

MOYNAN: Yes.

VAN GORDER: ...or to the coast?

MOYNAN: Yes. They got to Shanghai. They had to go straight south.

VAN GORDER: And that was about [unclear]...or...

MOYNAN: Yes.

VAN GORDER: ...Eight hundred.

MOYNAN: And it took them about a month. And, you know, to me, that...one of the greatest miracles of that whole terrible experience was they had no first aid equipment. Dr. Leslie was with them, and in the first attack almost with a sword he had the tendons of his right wrist cut, so he almost bled to death and he wasn't able to help anybody. And they didn't have any kind of...you know, help. And how they ever got over this. Father had eight serious wounds.

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: And....

VAN GORDER: I heard that and that there were no...no...no fatal infection.

MOYNAN: No.

VAN GORDER: Yeah. Amazing,

MOYNAN-. That...that's...that's just absolutely miraculous.

VAN GORDER: Incredible in itself.

MOYNAN: It...it's so obvious that God had work for them to do, especially my father, and he started in as...as an evangelist and became a great revival preacher very soon after he got back to...to China. And this experience, I believe, was allowed of God for several reasons. I've been analyzing this myself in more recent years, and I've been telling the story. Seems strange that here, fifty years later, well, nearly a hundred years after they went to China, here am I telling this story all over the world. I just told it on The Hour of Power program which goes to millions of people all over the world, and people that have never heard this story before have heard this story of the power of God. And as I say, this story demonstrates is...that...that the power of God was greater than the power of Satan because those people tried their best to kill Father. They tried over and over again to kill him. But it was impossible to do so, because the power of God surrounded him at that time. Well now, there are several things that have come out in...in my thinking since. And one is this. See what you think about this. You know, if God had allowed them to come through that experience unhurt.... Now, there were two hundred to three hundred missionaries massacred at that time. Father and Mother were among the very few who escaped. Now, if they'd been allowed to come out unhurt, I don't think the world would ever have heard about Jonathan Goforth. He could...possibly wouldn't have.

VAN GORDER: [unclear]

MOYNAN: But, it was because of that dramatic experience of the power of God, and I believe that he sent his angels at that time, as he...in the Bible repeatedly there are stories of angels being sent to deliver his servants who trusted in Him.

VAN GORDER: Sure.

MOYNAN: And I think that that really is one of the main purposes of Father allowing...I mean...

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: ...being allowed to go through that awful experience.

VAN GORDER: Yeah right. Trial. How did...he must have had a period of recovery somewhere.

MOYNAN: Yes. They...he...well, he...he was able to lead this little band of sixteen, half of them children, half adults, to safety. And...and when he got to Canada, he collapsed. Well, no wonder. And I think it was almost a year. I...I'm sure it wasn't any longer than he could possibly get going. But he got going back again just as soon as he could.

VAN GORDER: Well, did they just carry him in the cart after they picked, after the Boxers...

MOYNAN: No!

VAN GORDER: ...after this attack?

MOYNAN: That was the miracle. You don't know that story? Oh, that's one of the real miracles of the st...of story. He was lying...Mother thought he was bleeding to death, and...and would...would just simply go any moment.

VAN GORDER: Yes. Yeah.

MOYNAN: And one of the other missionaries came in and looked at him and said, "What are we going to do? Jonathan Goforth's the only one that...that...that has the language well enough to get these demoralized carters together and get us on to safety. What are we going to do now?" And at that very moment my father stood up on his feet, and he said to Mother, "Don't worry, Rosalind. As long as God has work for me to do, He will give me the strength to do it." And that was the faith that he got at that time, and he walked out of there to lead the...that little band out. And you know, although he'd been bleeding to death a few minutes before.

VAN GORDER: I'll be [unclear]....

MOYNAN: Isn't that something? That's one of the great miracles of that story.

VAN GORDER: I guess.

MOYNAN: And he went on and led them to safety to Canada. Oh, it's...it's a terrific story. And of course, one other thing that I've gotten from this is that it made my father completely dependent on God. Most of his life...if you'll read the story, you'll read how in Knox College something happened where they made fun of him in such a way that he became a loner. I mean, his fellow students. It was a cruel thing that was done. He got...he had some material, white material that...ready for making...getting a seamstress to make into some underwear and pajamas, I suppose. They got hold of this, made a hole in it, put it over him naked, made him run up and down the halls, making fun of Jonathan Goforth. Now that happened and it's told in Goforth of China. But that...at that time, he went to the head of the school and...and said, "Well, are you going to allow this to happen?" And...and the man...the principal just passed it off as...as a harmless prank of the boys in Knox College. Well now, at that...and Father on his knees that night, really dependent on God and is...was like that for the rest of his life. He became a loner. And this...this...this Boxer experience was very much the same thing. But you'll be interested to know that what happened at Knox Church...Knox College, was this. That for those years that they were there, Father would go down and work in the slums and he'd come home with these stories of...of converting a...a...a prostitute or something. And these boys, you know, at the tables would giggle at it with each other, "He doesn't even know what a prostitute is," you know, and...and this kind of thing, and make fun of him. And, but in...in Goforth of China you can read that at the end, they all without any exception would agree that Jonathan Goforth was taking the right way and they had taken the wrong way. And...and the one that's expresses it so beautifully is Dr. [pauses] Gordon. He's...he was Rob Conner [?], one of Canada's famous writers at that time. He was a...a...a student with my father, the same class. And he tells how they all at the end respected my father so much and...and most of them went into the ministry or mission field as a result of my father's life.

VAN GORDER: Great [?]

MOYNAN: Now isn't that fantastic? It really...you know, it...it's a terrific story of...of Father's.

VAN GORDER: Well, there must have been times when...when your father was trusting in God or...or seeking some sign and it didn't come. And how would he...he would respond to that? Because we all...this happens sometimes, there's just nothing there.

MOYNAN: Yeah.

VAN GORDER: And...but he would...how would he interpret that as God saying "no," or "not yet," or "you do it"? There must have been times when some...where the message was very unclear as to what he should do or...or seemingly empty, just as the...just as Jesus said one time, "Why have you forsaken me?" There must have been certain dark nights of the soul.

MOYNAN: Possibly. But you know, Bob, I...I really can't witness to that.

VAN GORDER: [unclear] Yeah.

MOYNAN: I can witness to the other side...

VAN GORDER: Right.

MOYNAN: ...of the positive. But you say he was human and...and no doubt...

VAN GORDER: He probably....

MOYNAN: ...there were times, but you need to read the book By My Spirit, which, of course, is...is one book that he wrote himself and...and he reveals a great deal of himself in that book. And then Mother, in writing Goforth of China, tries to bring out his character in so many ways. But you know, I...I must say that that isn't impressed on my memory at all.

VAN GORDER: Sure [?].

MOYNAN: It's the very opposite...

VAN GORDER: Right.

MOYNAN: ...you see, that...that...the things that I remember. Would you be interested in...in my first memory of my father?

VAN GORDER: Sure.

MOYNAN: Now, I think this is an indication of his character and his work for the rest of his life, and why. He...it...and I was about three probably. And you know how kids get up in the morning before their parents wish they would, you know. And I was always getting up early and wandering around getting into mischief. But you know, I never remember getting up before my father. And I found out afterwards that he set five a.m. as his rising hour so that he would have time enough to read his Bible and pray. And my earliest memory of him is in that study in...in China, in Changte. And he was always there at his desk leaning over his Bibles. He always had three translations in front of him. And he was leaning over his Bible and praying. And you know, as a little child, and this wasn't my nature, I remember tiptoeing in quietly and getting on a chair and watching him, and be fascinated, just watching him. And I would be quiet and reverent, just like he was. And you know, that to this day, seventy-seven years later, or over seventy years later and it...I still...I can say this, it has left me with the feeling that prayer and Bible study are the most important things in the life of a Christian. And if we cheat there, we cheat God as well as ourselves. Now he...this was his whole life. He just gave all his spare time to reading and praying. And he read through the Bible seventy-three times aside from all the little readings. He read it right through seventy-three times in his lifetime. And his concentration on reading the Bible and praying. And that's why he got the guidance you have just referred to. He never seemed to have any confusion about it. He just seemed to know what God wanted him to do. Now, I've got something with me. I'll have to go in the other room. It's something that was in the back of his Bible that brings out this point of seeking God's will. I'll bring it in a minute. It was Seven Rules for Christ-like Living. I don't remember him talking about them in his lifetime. But I found this in the back of his Bible, and I believe it's referred to in Goforth of China. But you know, nobody's talked much about it. But the more I've read these rules, I've seen what's...they... they have come out in his life. And the fifth one is the one that has inspired me most, and it goes like this, "In all things big or little, in all things, seek to know God's will, and when known, obey at any cost." Now doesn't that say a lot? And you know, that is one of I believe, the...

VAN GORDER: [unclear]

MOYNAN: ...secrets of why he became the man God could use like he did, you know. That he tried all the time to seek God's will, not his own...

VAN GORDER: Could he...

MOYNAN: ...pleasure.

VAN GORDER: ...could he say he was sorry whenever he made a mistake or...?

MOYNAN: [laughs] That's a good question. I think that's a terribly important question. Why is it that so many people find it hard to say they're sorry?

VAN GORDER: It's hard.

MOYNAN: Yes. That's something I tried to get my children, and I didn't get to first base with it. I felt in Chefoo that's one thing they got across to us. That if you would say you were sorry even if you felt you were ninety-five percent in the right...

VAN GORDER: [laughs] Yeah [unclear]....

MOYNAN: ...you see, that if you said you were sorry for the little bit you did wrong...

VAN GORDER: Yes.

MOYNAN: ...that you would disarm the...the other person...

VAN GORDER: Helps to reconcile...

MOYNAN: ...you see. And personally I think it's one of the best things to go by in personal relationships. But my boys, my five boys, I don't think they ever [both laugh] cottoned to that rule at all. Because...

VAN GORDER: [laughs] Well, there's still time.

MOYNAN: It...it is terribly important.

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

[Recording stopped and restarted]

VAN GORDER: Here are those Seven Rules for Christ-like Living by Jonathan Goforth. "One, give much but expect nothing. Two, put the very best construction on the words and actions of others. Three, spend at least fifteen minutes each day on studying the Bible. Four, never omit daily morning and evening private devotions. Five, in all things seek to know God's will and when known obey at any cost. Six, seek to cultivate a quiet, prayerful spirit. Seven, seek each day to do or say something to help build the kingdom of God on earth.

[Recording stopped and restarted]

VAN GORDER: Did you travel frequently from town to town? I know that you were in Changte as a kind of settlement there for...for those four years or so.

MOYNAN: Yes.

VAN GORDER: And well, did...did you remain there while your father moved around a lot, or did...did you all always travel together, or how did that...or was it quite varied depending on what year?

MOYNAN: You haven't got this on, have you?

VAN GORDER: Yeah, that's all right.

MOYNAN: You have?

VAN GORDER: Sure.

MOYNAN: 'Cause your voice is so gentle. I....

VAN GORDER: That's all right. You still speak.

MOYNAN: Mine is....

VAN GORDER: Oh, no. That's all right.

MOYNAN: I speak too loud.

VAN GORDER: No, no. It [unclear]....

MOYNAN: I would like to just say this about my voice. My father taught us kids (the younger ones at least) to speak loud and clear for the sake of my mother, because she was very deaf.

VAN GORDER: Oh, that's right.

MOYNAN: And this is the reason. And sometimes now I am embarrassed because I realize my voice is too loud. And I have friends say, "Pipe down, Mary! Pipe down!" [both laugh] So...but on the whole it's become a real asset...

VAN GORDER: Oh, it has.

MOYNAN: ...in...in the work I'm doing. And now in this work of...of doing the...the Goforth books for the blind, as Talking Books, you see, they tell me that my voice comes over so clear. And I've been taught by my father to enunciate clearly, so now [laughs]....

VAN GORDER: It sure helps.

MOYNAN: It's...it's, yes, it really is. Now, I...I...maybe you'd be interested in...some of the supplements, what you were just reading in the book...

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: ...of your mother's account, and that beautiful tribute to her mother and my mother, is that she speaks of...of this country work of evangelism. Well now, that is one of the great stories of my mother's life. And it involves her losing her five children. Now she fought my father on this for years. And no woman would judge her...condemn her for this at all, because her reason for not doing what he wanted was she felt she was exposing her children to the awful diseases at that time. And so she could not do it. And, well, they actually had a saying at that time that "There's no use counting your children until after they had smallpox," because it was so common and so many children died of smallpox. Well, I actually played with children one whole day that had smallpox. And this is one of the real answers to prayer. Mother tells this in one of the books, Little Mary and the Smallpox Babies. Now, I don't know whether you want that story for....

VAN GORDER: Sure.

MOYNAN: Well, briefly, I was about three or four at the time, and Mother was leaving four kids with the amah in the main station while she went out with my father for a day's preaching in the country place. And at the last minute the amah came running to my mother and she said, "Oh, Mrs. Goforth, if you'll just take Mary, I can manage the rest of them." Well, I guess I was a little demon. They say I was and I'm sure I was. So poor Mother had to lug me on that trip. And that's when it happened. I played with these kids all day. She was so engrossed in preaching that she didn't realize there was an epidemic of smallpox in the village. And at the close of the day, she was absolutely stunned at what she had done, because she realized she had exposed her own children and the children of the other missionaries to this terrible disease. Because you don't need much contact to get smallpox. So they went home and they must have had a humdinger of a prayer meeting, because they claimed that promise, "No plague shall come nigh thy dwelling." [Psalm 91:10] And Mother in the book she ends it up, "And so little Mary did not get the smallpox. God answered prayer." But years later, I was so amused when she told me the story. She added this. She said, "Do you know, Mary, I took your temperature every night for three weeks." [both laugh] You see, she was going to be ready.

VAN GORDER: Yes.

MOYNAN: The others could do the praying, but she was going to be ready if I showed the first sign of having smallpox. [both laugh] You know, that was so like Mother. She...

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: ...she just did a really....

VAN GORDER: [unclear].

MOYNAN: Very, very human. But this business of losing your children is...is a terrible story. And a man was tapping me on this just the other day, over and over [?] on it. He just cannot accept this. And, of course, I believe it's because he is not a born-again Christian. He can't accept that God's will...He has reasons that we don't know about. And this is in some ways it seems like a terrible story. But this is what happened. It wasn't until the deathbed of her fifth child that she came to my father and said, "Jonathan, I can see now that I've been fighting against God and not just against you. I'm willing to go. I'm willing to do this evangelistic work out in the country places." And you know, it was a terrible step for her...

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: ...but from then on, God honored her faith. I was one of the first children she took in that way, and I never had any contagious disease as a result of those years of...of traveling and doing that work. And I remember the places. They were awful. I could picture them. They...no, the floors were just beaten down earth. Their ceiling was no ceiling. You could...any bug or...or caterpillar or anything would crawl and fall down on you any time. That kind of thing. And living in the...in the cold places and...and hot in summer. And...and just these brick beds. You know, there's so much hardship in connection with that. And plumbing was a minus quantity. You...you just....

VAN GORDER: Oh, you couldn't like to have a bath when you wanted.

MOYNAN: Oh, bath! It was...going to the toilet was absolute torture to walk on bricks over this business and...and try and...

VAN GORDER: Oh, yeah, it must.

MOYNAN: Oh, and my memories of that are very vivid. But the wonderful thing is this: that every single place in which they preached as a family.... Mother would preach in the inner courtyard, Father on the streets to the crowds, and then at night they'd come together and she'd play her little organ which was a great attraction. And then they would have great meetings and hundreds came to God. And in that way every place they'd preach as a family, and moved on to another place for a month, and a month, and a month, each place, a church of Jesus Christ was started. There will be thousands in heaven who will say, "Praise God for Jonathan and Rosalind Goforth. For Rosalind, who was willing at last to do that work." And so you know, that story, it's a...it's a beautiful story. But it's a story hard to understand, of why God would bring her through these terrible experiences of losing five children. Because my father kept saying to her, "Well, Rosalind, the only safe path is your path of duty, to do your...."

VAN GORDER: Didn't your...did your father sometimes...well, he must have sorrowed with her [unclear]....

MOYNAN: Oh, he did! I mean he...

VAN GORDER: Yes.

MOYNAN: ...those children meant just as much...

VAN GORDER: Sure. Yeah.

MOYNAN: ...to him as they did to her. And...and they were...the children were...some very moving scenes of the death of these children, how they were...they just clung to their father...

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: ...you know. It was a...just a terribly tragic thing. But it's a triumphant story.

VAN GORDER: Yes. Oh, amazing.

MOYNAN: The...the...you know, overall story is...is just marvelous. And, of course, I think that the one of the most exciting chapters of the whole life of the Goforths is in the last seven years in Manchuria. At seventy years of age, they weren't content to come back to Canada and sit in a rocking chair and wait to die. They simply looked around for a mission field. You see, China was in turmoil at the time and they couldn't stay there. And they were darned if they were going to come back to Canada and give up, you see. And they found this field in Manchuria that had three million people and no missionaries, And that's where they started. And believe me, it's a terrific story. I have one letter that I'm not sure that I've got it, but I remember treasuring it for a long time, that Father wrote saying at that time he was getting an average of ten conversions a day. He personally. And by this time they had gathered sixty well-trained Chinese evangelists that came from China proper from a...from a seminary.

VAN GORDER: Yeah. Tell...tell about...about...more about that.

MOYNAN: At the end. Oh, it was really...

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: ...terrific.

VAN GORDER: Was he blind at that time?

MOYNAN: Not until the last two years. It was seven years there in Manchuria. And when they first went there, you see, it...it was just about the time of the Depression. And Father wrote...you know, he was such an exuberant, enthusiastic.... They say I've inherited his temperament. I guess I have. But he immediately sent to the mission board in Canada, said, "Send me out fifty young men. I could use fifty young missionaries to evangelize these three million people," you know. This was what he was like.

VAN GORDER: Excellent.

MOYNAN: Well, they sent the word back, "Because of the...the Depression, we can't send you one. We can only pay your salary." And that was a question. And of course, that's the worst thing you can say to a missionary, not to give them any money to evangelize. Well, that sent my father to his knees. And Mother describes how he got down on his knees and pled with God and...and something to the effect that, "Well now, Lord, you know about these three million people. They've got to be saved. And we just don't have anybody to do anything. You send the men and the money to support them." And that's exactly what God did. Within a few days my father got a letter from a Doctor Hays [?] in north China that was the head of the seminary. And (he was a great friend of my father's) [Van Gorder coughs]...and China, as I've said, was all in turmoil, and Dr. Hays wrote to my father and said, "I've got [Van Gorder coughs] sixty young men, graduates of the seminary, and I haven't got any place to send them. Could you use any of them?" [Van Gorder laughs]

MOYNAN: And what do you think Father said. [Van Gorder coughs] He said, "Send them all. Send them all." Well you know, that was really going out on a limb of faith.

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: And I remember my mother, you know she was so typical. She said, "Well, h-h-h-how are we going to feed them?" You know, what were they going to do to feed them? They probably had families too. Father said, "Wait, God is going to take care of it. He sends the men, He's going to send the money to feed them." And that's exactly what happened. That...their work became a faith work from then on [Van Gorder coughs] and the money came in from unsolicited gifts from all over the world. [Van Gorder coughs] I've often wondered how people knew about them even.

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: They must've found out through magazines or...you know, Christian magazines and so on. And...but of course, by that time, you see, they had been speaking in England, and...and in America for many years and they were known greatly. And I remember [R.J.] Le Tourneau was one of their great supporters, the man that does the "earth mover" business, you know. And oh, he gave very generously to their work. And so that's what went on. And in those years they established forty-eight churches. But you think of any church at home. How many churches has your church established? I mean, it's just a miracle. Forty-eight churches were established at that time. And this is interesting to show how they were really established. It wasn't just some hit-and-miss, fly-by-night thing. The people themselves got the materials, [Van Gorder coughs] they bought everything, they built the churches, they got...they paid for their pastors. It was an indigenous work which was a way ahead of the other missions at the time in the world. Father was miles ahead of them. But this was interesting. When Father died and...and Mother had to go home, (well, they both went home before that) the Chinese-Japanese War began. Now that went on for fourteen years, and nobody could get into that field during those fourteen years. Now at the end of the fourteen years, missionaries from other parts of Manchuria did get into the field. And they found forty-seven of those churches carrying on. And that's why I honestly believe that Mao Tse Tung could not have liquidated all those Christians. And it's a sort of remote area from Peking, and I am believing that God wants me to get back there and to bring comfort and inspiration to some of those Christians or at least their children will be alive. And of course, I'm alive, one of the Goforth children...

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: ...so it's possible that there are still some of their converts in that place. But...and this is what...

VAN GORDER: Could be.

MOYNAN: ...I'm...I'm really believing. And I've found that God has led me to a...a...a tour that is being led by a Dr. Dicousy Rayner [?], a former moderator of the Presbyterian Church in Canada. And he's leading this tour in July, and it's to go to Manchuria. It's the first tour I've heard of that includes Manchuria. And so I put my name down [laughs] in faith, and the three hundred dollar down payment hasn't been made and I...I'm making it this coming week, and I don't have half the money yet and it's got to be in by the first of June. But God has done so much in the past, am I going to question Him now? I...I just know that I'm to go to Manchuria, and that that money is going to come in.

VAN GORDER: Right.

MOYNAN: And people...what I'm so thrilled about, is people wherever I go on Long Island the last few days, they are so excited about me getting back, a Goforth getting back to Manchuria to that field where Father spent his last years. And they want to have a help...have a part in it.

VAN GORDER: Sure.

MOYNAN: They...they want to, as it were, have an investment in what God is going to do.

VAN GORDER: Vicariously....

MOYNAN: Yes. They want to have a...

VAN GORDER: ...participate.

MOYNAN: ...part in it. And I think this is very appropriate to tell you what happened at the very end of Father's life. To me it's...it's the thing, it's one of the biggest things that I have learned from his life, and from studying it and...and from telling about it is this. Towards the end of his life he...he was constantly saying, "I don't want to have any frozen assets..."

NARRATOR: For continuation of this message, please turn to side two. [recorder stopped and restarted]

MOYNAN: ...Father's life. To me it's...it's the thing, it's one of the biggest things that I have learned from his life, and from studying it and...and from telling about it is this. Towards the end of his life he...he was constantly saying, "I don't want to have any frozen assets when Jesus comes for me." Now what he meant, he didn't want any bank accounts, he didn't want any money left so that, as he would say, that could go to the Anti-Christ.

VAN GORDER: Sure.

MOYNAN: You know, they were always talking about the Anti-Christ in those days. [Van Gorder coughs] And...but he really lived by this. He would...any money that came in it went out to the mission field. It went out to saving souls, to evangelistic work. Well, you may be interested to know, I don't know whether you've ever heard this, but shortly before he died a lady wrote to him asking for the name of his bank. Now how would you like a millionaire to write and ask you for the name of your bank? She wanted to put three million dollars to his credit, because she said she had such confidence in his kind of evangelistic work. Well now, that happened just a few days before Father died. So it did not materialize. But he felt (and I think this was so nice)...he felt that God had done this, and it was a very sweet vindication of his lifelong stand that in missionary work, evangelism should have the first place. And at that time, in most of the established churches, and even to this day I think it's true, but it's educational work and medical work that are the big important things and evangelism is a side issue. So you see, Father felt very much vindicated in this. But to go...to tell you just exactly what happened to that money at the very end or the money they had. It was called The Evangelistic Goforth Fund, The Goforth Evangelistic Fund, and it was kept in the Bank of Commerce on Yonge [?] in Toronto, which is...was then certainly, considered one of the great banking centers of Canada, probably still is. And the...Bob went down (my husband)...went down to close out this account after Mother died. And the bank manager said this...he said, "I can't explain this to you. I can only give you the facts, and that is that more money has gone through this Evangelistic Fund of the Goforths than any other account in my bank." And he was floored by it. Well, of course, it's obvious to any Christian. They were all piling it up for this world, you see. And Father was pouring it out on the mission field. And that's why so much came in. It kept coming in. And I believe that when people go all out for God, God does the same thing and he goes all out for them. And He certainly did for Father. He just poured the money into that work at the end. It was...it was just beautiful. And Father would say, "You can't out-give God because God will never let anyone...be any man's debtor. He always gives [clock chimes four times] more than you can give to Him." And it's one of the great things that I've learned from him.

[While there is no audio break in the interview, the previous and following sentences almost are on top of one another while being apparently unrelated, which suggest that there was a break in interview]

MOYNAN: ...the most amazing things that has happened to me in recent years is what happened in Taiwan. And [pauses] people will remember that last June President Carter recognized China in such a way that it left Taiwan very very bitter, very resentful and they were even hating Americans for a while. And they were even scared that China would just come in and swamp them, take over. Well, it was just at this time that I felt I should go with this Nora Lam tour, which is a missionary crusade. She's a Chinese lady and she leads these crusades every year. She has done it for six years. And she has tremendous crowds in this Kaohsiung [pauses] stadium, down south Taiwan. And I went with her because I was told that Taiwan, Hong Kong and Manila would be good places to try and contact Chinese Christians. And I remember praying very definitely, "Oh Lord, can't you in some way help me to express the love of that great missionary past in China. Hundred and fifty years roughly that.... Father and Mother were just two of hundreds of missionaries that preached the gospel all over China, gave their love and their lives to China. If I could just express that love to these hurting people." Well, God answered that prayer beyond my wildest dreams. I was on TV north and south. No manager, however good a manager if I had one, could've...have arranged this. It was a spontaneous thing that happened. And only God had been...could have been in back of it. I'm almost ashamed to begin this because it...it involves a...a...a very almost childish thing on my part. I just decided I was going to get a picture of the table of the VIPs at the front of this press conference the first day of this crusade. And I took my little camera and went up to the front of this room on the outside in a hallway. I opened the door and was just gonna to take the picture when the place sort of exploded. Everybody began to stand up. And somebody said, "Oh, the TV cameras are coming. The TV cameras are coming. They want these front two rows filled out." Mrs. Lam pushed me into the front seat, and there I was in a picture that was all over Taiwan, and the story of it. And later I was interviewed by the editor of the one religious magazine, or religious daily paper, or weekly paper, made in Taiwan. And was able to give the Goforth story from my point of view of love. Now, wasn't that something? That was just one angle. Well, they started in with this press conference, and it was all on the TV cameras. And here was I sitting in the front row. And they went through a great lot of palaver about, you know, thanking the...the people that had come on this tour, thanking Mrs. Lam and thanking all these...these tour members for coming from America and giving their time, you know, to do this, and so on. The Chinese are great on that. Then there came a sort of pause. Everybody looked around wondering what was going to happen next. Now I can't explain why I did this. I just know I was impelled to do it. And I've never been so sure that I did the right thing. The lady sitting next to me had in her hand a copy of How I Know God Answers Prayer, that little book of Mother's that I had just given her. I said, "Give me this for a minute." And I leaned over to Mrs. Lam. She was just, you see, across the VIP table from me, and I said, "Could I just have two or three minutes to speak of this book which is going into Chinese?" Well, she did the natural thing, I guess. She turned to Dr. Ralph Wilkerson, who emcees her programs usually, sitting next to her, and she...he had heard what I said, so she turned to him. And afterwards he told me...he said, "'Oh,' I said to myself, 'Somebody else pushing a book.'" Well, he's written books himself. And...but the Lord guided him, because he nodded his head, gave me the green light. So I stood up and I faced that table full of very important people. Taiwan is a very impressive country, believe me. They're a very modem, prosperous country. And they had a whole row of...of press people that don't...some of them didn't speak English. So I knew this, you see. And the Chinese came out in a minute. And all these tour people, hundred twenty-five of them, people who are leaders from all the churches of America and Canada.... Well, I...the Lord was with me, and in a few concise sentences I just simply said, "This little book is the story of the early missionary endeavor in China of two, Jonathan and Rosalind Goforth, my parents." And by this time I had my back to them and was talking to most of the crowd. And Dr. Wilkerson was right here. His wife told me afterward she thought he was going through the roof. He reacted so violently at the name of Goforth. He just couldn't believe his ears, you see. And...but I just went on that "This, I believe, will be an important link between the past and the present. The present that Mrs. Lam represents, that many, many people are trying to get the Bibles into China, trying to evangelize and help this underground church. This is a link with the past. And this is a message that this underground church is going to just love." And something to this effect. And...and this was the main point that I made. "Well, I believe that that past...that this present, rather, is a result of the past. You can't tell me that God isn't keeping his promise that 'My word shall not return to me void.' [Isaiah 55:11] That hasn't all gone down the drain, those hundreds of years of preaching. This is coming out in the church today. It's coming out in what we're seeing right here, this evangelistic effort to evangelize China." And Dr. Wilkerson got up and, oh boy, he backed me up a hundred and fifty per cent. He said, "I can't...why...that...I'm stunned." That was the first word he said. "I'm simply stunned." He said, "This lady repre...well, she's the daughter of two of the greatest, most famous missionaries of all time. Jonathan Goforth's been my greatest hero all my life. And here his daughter stands in front of me." [laughs] Oh, he really was [unclear], you know, he flipped.

VAN GORDER: Laid it on them, yeah.

MOYNAN: He's the only.... And then (he said it very nicely) he said, "What she says is very true, that this book...and she is a link between the past and the present, and it's a very important link. We must remember that what's going on today is the result of the past." And he again quoted the verse that I've just quoted. Well, do you know what happened? It was so spontaneous. The whole crowd, the...everybody, the VIPs and all the tour people, they stood up and [claps] clapping and just spontaneous...

VAN GORDER: No kidding.

MOYNAN: ...really strong applause, because they caught the importance of that point, that the...the present is the result of the past in China. Isn't that beautiful?

VAN GORDER: Yes.

MOYNAN: Well, after that Dr. Wilkerson...the next day we got down to Tai...to Kaohsiung, where the opening of the crusade is. And it was held in a stadium; they said something about sixty thousand people in that stadium but I...I think it would be safe to say there were certainly thirty thousand. It was a big crowd and it was absolutely packed. And there were...a lot of them were Christian people. And it was a tremendous opportunity for me. When he walks up to me just as I was getting on a bus to go to the meeting, no idea of what he had in his mind, he said, "I'm going to interview you." Interview me before these thirty thousand people! I said, "Oh, Lord. You're going to have to speak and...and express this love that I've got in my heart." And then...fortunately I had on a red dress. That's the color of happiness in China. And, of course, my white hair went over with them, and as he brought me to the podium, they just gave a storm of applause. And of course he had said I was the daughter of early missionaries to China. And I remembered something that Bob had said, and you know, it kind of amuses me the older I get. We women, we learn a lot from our husbands if we would just listen. And I remember him saying that if you face a strange audience, the best way to win them is to tell them something that will make them laugh at you. So I did this. And right off the bat, I said, "Wo sheng le zai Zhong guo, wo you hong tou fa." And that means, "When I was born in China, I had red hair." Well now, I didn't need to explain to them. Immediately they began to giggle, you know, because they don't have red hair. They never see anything but jet black hair. They don't even see blonde hair, you see. So I was a freak. And I went on to say, "Han bai de ren, lai kan kan Zhong guo wa wa..." (wa wa is baby) "...you hong tou fa." That means, "Hundreds of people insisted on coming and seeing this weirdo baby with the red hair." And of course they were really laughing by this time. And then I told them that my Mo...some lady said to my mother, "You certainly can't leave its hair that color. It would be better to dye it green." Well, [laughs] that...they just exploded into laughter, you know. [Van Gorder laughs] And I forget everything I said, but something to the effect that my father and mother loved China and loved the Chinese. They wanted to die in China. And I [said], "Wo de fu gin mode muqin, fu zai Zhong guo, cha be duo wu shi nian." "My father and mother lived in China for about fifty years." And "Wo sheng le zai Zhong guo, wo fei dao Mei guo liu shi nian." See, all this, I didn't know I could say it until that moment!

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: She hadn't said anything like it.

MOYNAN: You know, it is absolutely one of God's miracles in my life. And what I had just said was, "I was born in China and then I had to go back to Canada and America for about sixty years." And then they tell me this sentence wowed the crowd, because I said, "Zian zai, wo fei lai le. Gao wo de lao jia." And that means, "Now, I've come back to my old home." And boy, did they ever clap that, you know.

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: And they were so loving by this time. And my closing sentence was, "Wo hen gaoxing. Wo neng xue wo ye shi ge Zhong guo ren." And that means...and then did they ever clap. I said, "I'm very happy that I can honestly say I feel that I too am Chinese. "Yi ban Mei guo, yi ban Zhong guo." "I'm half American, half Chinese. But I am Chinese." And they just loved it. Oh, did they ever clap. And when I sat down, the man...minister sitting next to me, he leaned over and he says, "Man, did they ever love you. They just about ate you up." [unidentified woman laughs] Now wasn't that something, you see?

VAN GORDER: That's great.

MOYNAN: That's how I was somehow able to express...

VAN GORDER: ...[unclear] communicate.

MOYNAN: ...that love. I communicated...

VAN GORDER: That's great.

MOYNAN: ...even though I never dreamed I could say any of those words and....

VAN GORDER: When you stopped talking Chinese when you were...how long...?

MOYNAN: Well, I...I learned it as a child. You...you imbibe a language about two years of age. And you gradually accumulate vocabulary and so on. Well, I learned the two at the same time, Mandarin and English. And you'd be interested to know that a man came and sat down beside me while I was on the platform still and before the meeting was over, he was so excited. And...and I found out afterwards he was in charge of the whole crusade. And he came and leaned over. He said, "Why, you speak excellent Peking Mandarin!" Isn't that something?

VAN GORDER: And when was the last time you...you'd spoken that much Chinese?

MOYNAN: Sixty years! More than sixty years.

VAN GORDER: And you didn't know you could do it. [unclear]

MOYNAN: No! I simply did not...[unidentified woman's voice in the background] I had tried the last few months to rub up a little bit on it and I had a few odd words...

VAN GORDER: Sure.

MOYNAN: ...and sentences, you know, but never dreamed I could say what I wanted to say, you know, like that.

WOMAN: And it all came out so clearly.

MOYNAN: And I just believe that when I go back to Manchuria in July that this is going to happen again, because God must be giving it to me for a purpose. There must be a purpose. And if He's opened the door this far, I'm quite confident that the money's going to come. It did before. Once...I forgot to tell you, but last summer I went, you know, to Taiwan, and I didn't have the money. And my church gave me a thousand dollars, a church I didn't know at all gave me six hundred. But one of the loveliest touches was this. Just before I had to go...well, a short time before...it was Father's birthday, the 10th of February. And a letter came on his birthday with five hundred dollars in it for his book going into German.

WOMAN: Oh, yes.

MOYNAN: Now it was as if Father was handing me five hundred dollars and saying, "This is to help you get to China." [unidentified woman's voice in the background] Now isn't that fantastic? I said to myself, "I wonder if they give presents [laughs] instead of getting them in heaven?" you know...and you know. So many things have happened about money that I'm not the least bit concerned about money. I happen...have the joy of living on such a low income that I don't have to fuss over an income tax return, you know. My income's too low. Isn't that wonderful?

VAN GORDER: I'll be darned [?].

MOYNAN-. It's true!

VAN GORDER: Gee, that's neat.

MOYNAN: I think it's wonderful. I say I live from hand to mouth, but the hand is the hand of the Lord. [laughs] And...and...and He supplies whatever He wants me to do. He sends the money. [unidentified woman's voice in the background] So...

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: ...I know I'm going to Manchuria.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Yeah.

VAN GORDER: "Jesus Loves Me."

MOYNAN: Yes. Bob wants me to say "Jesus Loves Me." I hope I can say it without stumbling. I've...I've taught this to several little kids. I taught it to a pair of twins that went all over singing it different places. Something like this, "Yesu." Yesu is Jesus. "Yesu nai quo, wo xiao gao wo, shen ming ba. Fan xiao hai zi zhu mu yang, w sui ran ruo ta geng giang." And the chorus, "Zhu Yesu nai guo, zhu Yesu nai guo, zhu Yesu nai guo, wo xaio de." Something to that effect. I... [Certain features of the above version as spoken by Moynan were reported by a Chinese translator to reflect a Taiwanese dialect.]

VAN GORDER: [unclear]

MOYNAN: Oh, yeah. [there may have been a break in the interview at this point, because the preceding and following sections seem butted up to closely to one another, and there is a faint sound which possibly is of the recorder being stopped and restarted.]

VAN GORDER: What about...was that the time when...

MOYNAN: He's a real interviewer.

VAN GORDER: ...when your mother...

MOYNAN: No.

VAN GORDER: ...shielded with her pillow?

MOYNAN: That was the same escape story, that a man came with a sword and went like this at [William] Wallace. Could've killed him but for Mother having a pillow handy that parried that blow. And she expected the man to come around the cart, you know, and...

VAN GORDER: Try again.

MOYNAN: ...[unclear]. But the whole story is full of things like that. That you cannot explain except that God had the purpose of bringing them out alive. You see, there were very few that escaped. Because the...the leadership determined to kill them. And they tried. Goodness knows they tried. [laughs]

VAN GORDER: [unidentified woman's voice in the background] How many were there? [unidentified woman's voice in the background]

MOYNAN: There were sixteen.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Oh, sixteen.

VAN GORDER: Sixteen robbers?

MOYNAN: Oh, [unclear]. We knew someone who came through that.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Yeah.

VAN GORDER: Sixteen bandits?

MOYNAN: No, no, no, no! Hundreds of those.

VAN GORDER: Really?

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Sixteen in the cart.

MOYNAN: Sixteen in the cart. And...and there were five children, so six...half of sixteen is eight. Eight children and eight adults. Eight children then. Mother had four and one was Wallace. He was eight months old. And Ruth, three. And then it would have been Helen must have been there.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Mom [unclear] she was there.

MOYNAN: And then Paul. Paul! There's an exciting story about Paul. If I'm speaking to young people on this, I always bring this in, because Paul was nine years of age and very precocious. He'd read...by that time he'd read all Dickens and Scott and everything else that they had, you know, these books that...usually it's teenagers that read....that read them. And he...he was...Mother had had to take care of his education, and he really was a very clever kid. But what he loved was the [unclear] books. You know what [unclear] books...? That was what nowadays would be comic books, you know. [unidentified woman's voice in the background] Adventure comic books.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Yeah.

MOYNAN: Very much so, adventure comic books. Well, [unclear] it starts out on one occasion...well, you really need the whole story of this because it...it's terrific to get...get the setting on it. He was in the last cart. There were five big carts, you see, because they had to put all their baggage on. They'd pack their trunks hoping to get them out. And then there they just lost everything. Everything they had at that time. And he and a Mr. Griffith, who was single, was in the...in the last cart. Well, they came to a place where they were going out of a city at night. And the...the head man of the...the city had (he was the governor)...he had sent...he had sent some soldiers with them, supposedly, pretending that...to protect them. But what actually was happening, he was sending this band of missionaries out with these soldiers to a certain spot where they would meet another band of soldiers that were to massacre them.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Oh my.

MOYNAN: Now that was the plan. And...and one of the Chinese servants heard this at the [unclear] and came back to the missionaries and... and...and he was so sure we were all going to be killed, that he went home and reported they all were killed. [laughs]

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Oh, dear. Oh, dear.

MOYNAN: So you can imagine how they felt at Changte, you know. "All the missionaries were killed. Oh, they were all killed." [unidentified woman's voice in the background] And...but this is what happened. Now God overruled for good what they had planned for evil. That's a...there's a good verse on that. And as they got out and it was dark, they could see lights being put on and off up on the...on the...the...you see there were walls around all these Chinese cities at that time. I remember that very well. They've taken them down in the Communist era. And on the top, you see...so Father and Mother and the other missionaries, they knew what had happened, that they were signaling to somebody in the distance. But they were helpless. They didn't know what to do. Here they had a...a soldier or two on the front of each of their carts and to lead them to that group. But God outwitted them. And Wallace...I mean Fred...I mean Paul. (Wallace, Fred, Paul!), he was the...the instrument in a sense, because Mr. Griffith got the idea that he could take Paul and go on a shortcut. He saw what was...looked like a shortcut. He thought he'd take Paul and go on a shortcut. Well, first thing Mother knew was the carter from this last cart came dashing up and said, "Oh, Mr. Griffith went out of his mind and he threw your son Paul down a well...

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Oh my.

MOYNAN: ...and...and jumped in after him!" Well now, if you heard anything like that, you know, you would think it was truth. Well, it wasn't truth, you see, as a matter of fact. But Mother would not budge from there until they dragged that well.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Oh, Lord.

MOYNAN: Now, I don't blame her. But that's what saved them, because while they were dragging the well, the...the...the only soldiers on the cart, they all went to sleep.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Oh! [unclear]

MOYNAN: And the carters unwittingly went a different road. And the [unclear]...by the time...well, they found there was nothing in the well. And meanwhile Wallace and...I mean, Paul and...and Mr. Griffith were off somewhere else. And that's another story how they finally found them was another wonderful answer to prayer. But, you know, Mother, she must have been absolutely frantic until they dragged that well and found nothing.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Yes, yes.

MOYNAN: And...but it took at long time. And so here they were. And by daylight the soldiers realized that they were so far away they couldn't do anything about it. So they just got up and went back to the city. And [unclear], I...I very seldom tell that because it takes time. You know, that's one of the worst things. There's so many exciting stories I can tell. It's just as if I was there because I've been told them so much when I go to be at night [laughs].

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: [unclear] Well now, tell us...tell us, how that they found Paul and Mr. Griffith.

MOYNAN: Oh, oh yeah. That, oh. Poor Mother. What Mother went through was just terrible. She....

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Incredible.

MOYNAN: I think Paul meant...Paul and Fred. Fred was her baby. Paul was the oldest, and of course boys, were much more important in those days than the girls were in the family. It was just part of the time. And so, Paul...losing Paul must have been a...a shattering experience. They...he was gone. They had no way and they had nobody to send or look for him, you see. And here there was this hue and cry to kill them. In fact there'd been an official edict. I think this is an interesting point. Let m...don't let me forget to come back to this. But I remember Mother describing it once, and it was so dramatic, that the first indication they had of their terrible danger was at night she could hear someone going by the compound. It was a horse at galloping speed. And they heard in the morning that it was the official edict he carried from the Empress Dowager in Peking, that she'd signed this edict to be sent to all the governors of all the provinces and all the main cities were to get this edict from the Empress Dowager to put to death all foreigners. Now it was only because some of those governors were wise enough and had the gumption to know that the great powers of the world would come in on them as they did. 'That's exactly what they did. They all sent a small army, you see, to squelch this rebellion. And some of them disobeyed that edict, fortunately. But one of the things that happened at the beginning was right away the normal thing, when they realized the danger they were in...and they'd just buried this beautiful seven-year-old daughter Florence, of spinal meningitis, you know, just buried her.... And Fred...they must have...I don't know how they could even think clearly at that stage. But they left and they did not go straight south. Now, you see, to the left, (I forget whether than would be east...east), our going south...east would be Shanghai. They knew that Shanghai was the only place they could possibly get to safety. So instead of going straight south, something (and what else was it but God) made them go a long way out of their way to the west. And if they'd gone south they would have been absolutely certainly killed, because the...the man at the first city that they went through was one of the...the bitter against foreigners and he massacred them all. And you know, sometimes when I hold this sword in my hand, I realize it could very well have been used to kill some of those missionaries, you see, because we got it right there in Honan. Bob got it on a battlefield of Chiang Kai-Shek. But what was I to come back to?

VAN GORDER: About Paul.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: About Mr....Paul and Mr. Griffith.

MOYNAN: Oh yes. This is what happened, briefly. I...I don't remember the details. You'll have to read the book of, you know, How I Know God Answers Prayer. It's all in chapter five. But also Goforth of China I believe has a lot more that she wrote much later. See, that little book was written sixty years ago. [coughs] The other one was written right at the end of her life. But as I remember it, they came to a...every step of the way was a miracle. They came to a city that the crowds were terribly angry and stirred up against them, and they didn't know...they expected to be killed at any minute. And they were taken into a...a sort of courtyard in, you know, one of these inns. And they were all made to stand out in the front and just be jeered at and...and looked at, and...and all this sort of thing. And...and they didn't know what any moment they would be killed. And the...the people just got more and more worked up...up against these foreign devils. And what do you think happened? Two young men came through the crowd and recognized my father as the man who had kindly given them hospitality, taken them in...them into his home in Changte. Oh, this must have been fifty, a hundred miles north, you see, any they're way south. And they were very proud scholars that...that, and their father...I think their father was either the governor or somebody very important. But they were the two young men and they recognized Father. They turned on the crowd and they said, "You're just doing a terrible thing! These are wonderful people!" And fortunately the crowd knew them, you see, and knew who they were. So they changed their attitude and they couldn't do enough for them. They just brought everything in and...and food and...and...and anything they needed, and...and immediately they asked if was there anything they could do. Well of course, Mother, you can imagine, [sounding tearful] "Find my Paul. [unclear]." I couldn't imagine the state she's in by that time. And that's what those two young men did. They sent people out to look all over the countryside, and it's quite a story about Paul and...and...and Mr. Griffith. And Mother says...she describes this, "That night they finally fell asleep on...on, you know, beaten ground...earth." That's all the floors were there. I remember that in those days they did that evangelism. And...and they just slept on...on these. Of course it was summertime and very hot. And she said she was so exhausted that when they brought in the middle of the night...brought Paul and Mr. Griffith in, they couldn't wake her.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Oh goodness.

MOYNAN: And in the morning she woke up at the first dawn and everybody was asleep. And she saw Paul.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Oh [unclear]

MOYNAN: Oh, boy, you can just imagine that. [Van Gorder and unidentified woman overlapping and unclear] That was one of God's miracles. [Laughs] The whole story is just terrific. I...you made me live it over again [laughs].

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: No. Oh no, you make it absolutely [unclear]....

MOYNAN: [Unidentified woman continues in background] Oh, it's just tremendous. Do you still wonder that I'm still telling this?

VAN GORDER: I know, it's just amazing.

MOYNAN: You know, it...it makes me think of Moses and crossing the Dead Sea [sic, meaning to say Red Sea]. Can you imagine those people getting tired of telling about that?

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: No.

VAN GORDER: No.

MOYNAN: You see, they must have gone on and on with their children and their grandchildren and...and so on. They were told to do it, of course, that to tell from generation to generation. And...and in a real sense I feel I'm doing the same thing. [laughs]

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Coffee or tea, Mom?

MOYNAN: Not...not strong.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Sanka for you, Bob?

MOYNAN: Thank you. Oh, I've got a story you don't know...

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: [unclear]

MOYNAN: ...that we're...talking about plum pudding reminded me of it. And it...it is one of the [wraps table] miracles. My life is...I think I'll have to write something about miracles, because it really...of course, that's so characteristic of Father's and Mother's stories. But this happened in Pittsburgh when our youngest boy Roland [?] was the last one in the family. And we had taken him down from Canada to Pittsburgh and, because the rest were, you know, married or older and...and he was the only one in the family. Well, it came to Christmas time and we thought, "Oh, my, this is terrible to have Christmas with just one son. [laughs] What'll we do? What'll we," you know, "supplement." And he was away at college and he was coming home for...for Christmas. So we called up a place in Pittsburgh that, I forget the name that...but what they do is they encourage students from other countries to come and make this their headquarters. And it's a very nice home for them that they have a nice lounge, and they can eat there if they want to, and all this sort of stuff. And we called them up and said, "Do you have two young men from China by any chance that would like an American Christmas dinner?" Well, they sent us two. One was from Taiwan and he was...I forget just what he was...theological student, I think. He was an interesting fellow. But when, you know, you immediately ask them, "Well, where are you from in China?" When you think of the size of China and the years that have gone by (now this would be in the middle '50s and I left China in [19]20, and Father went there in Changtefu in Honan, in 1888), this young man informs us that he comes from Changtefu in Honan.

VAN GORDER: No! [unidentified woman unclear in background]

MOYNAN: He's a medical student. He's a...a full-fledged doctor and he hadn't been able to contact his own family for ten years. They were behind what was called the...the Bamboo Curtain. Was this a coincidence? I never heard it. Well, I got so excited, I got [laughs], you know, asking all kinds of questions. It's a wonder I didn't make a complete mess of the dinner. But I did make a mess of the dessert [laughs].

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: No kidding.

MOYNAN: [laughs] I had put two [?] in the pans of...of pudding, you know, plum pudding, in a double boiler. And I clean forgot all about it and the bottom boiled dry, you see. And so I went to open one and phtt! It went all over the ceiling! [laughs]

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Oh no!

MOYNAN: [laughs] In the kitchen, you know. [laughs] Just because I was so excited, asking this fellow all kinds of questions. But...

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Oh, oh!

MOYNAN: ...fortunately the other can was.... I didn't have any, what you call, that sauce. I thought at the time if I'd only had some of that sauce, you know. But I had lemon...lemon sauce and...but I put ice cream with it. Somebody told me that it was a smart idea to serve ice cream with hot plum pudding. [laughs] And they all loved it. And so it managed to get around. But this fellow...isn't that something? And do you know, he even knew all about the...the mission. He said he had attended that.... And...and I don't know whether you ever knew this, but Mother's little bit of money she got from her family when her...her mother died, she put into the hospital and church there in Changte. And her name, of course, was Bell-Smith. And what do you think the name of the street was? The Street of the Bell-Smith.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Oh, [unclear].

VAN GORDER: Oh.

MOYNAN: Now, you know, [laughs] in fiction, you know, you would think this was awfully farfetched. But this is true. [laughs]

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Isn't that....

VAN GORDER: Yeah.

MOYNAN: And this man knew this, you see. "Oh," he says, "that was on the Street of the Bell-Smith." [laughs with a clanging noise in background]

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Oh, isn't that [unclear]...

MOYNAN: Oh, I'm telling you. Oh, we...so that was a memorable Christmas.

[the remaining portion of the tape appears to have been spliced onto the end of the interview tape, and is an audio letter read by Moynan]

MOYNAN: [there is an intermittent thumping or electronic sound] Dear Bob and Joy and Barbara, I'm talking from home at Tacoma, Washington, and I want to thank you very much, Bob especially, for thinking up this idea. And I hope this tape will be enjoyed by the whole family. And here is just a little postscript to wind off. We sure had a good time together, didn't we? [laughs] Some of it was kind of hilarious. Maybe Betty will want to do another tape when I get back from China, for I am to be with her overnight August the 4th. I'm sending a copy of this to Bob, Jr., of our family and his Nancy, for their birthdays are coming up. No doubt they'll circulate it around that part of the family. Please remember that nothing like this can possibly take the place of the seven Goforth books. I've done Climbing on tapes for the blind, but really is not only for the blind, I'm quite sure, and I hope to do them all eventually. Please read the books and order the tapes and let your children and grandchildren listen to them. I'd like to close with a quote from Psalm 145, which expresses David's great sense of heritage and our responsibility to pass on the stories of what God has done. "They shall abundantly utter the memory of God's great goodness. One generation shall praise God's works to another, and shall declare His mighty acts." [Psalm 145:7 followed by 145:4] So goodbye for now and God bless each and every single one of you. This is Mary Goforth Moynan signing off, June 1980.

END OF TAPE


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