This is a complete and accurate transcript of the second oral history interview of Earl Austin Winsor (CN 93, #2) in the Archives of the Billy Graham Center. No spoken words which were recorded are omitted. In a some cases, the transcribers could not understand what was said, in which case they put "[unclear]" in the place of the missing word or phrase. If the transcriber was not absolutely sure of having gotten what the speaker said, "[?]" was inserted. Also, grunts, verbal hesitations such as "ah" or "um" were usually omitted. Readers of this transcript should remember that this is a transcript of spoken English, which follows a different rhythm and even rule than written English.
... Three dots indicate an interruption or break in the train of thought within the sentence of the speaker.
.... Four dots indicate what the transcriber believes to be the end of an incomplete sentence.
() Word in parentheses are asides made by the speaker.
 Words in brackets are comments made by the transcriber.
This transcription was made in March 1991 by Robert Shuster and Kerry Cox.
Collection 93, Tape #T2. Interview of Earl Austin Winsor by Mary Ann Buffington, November 6, 1979.
BUFFINGTON: There we go. This is an interview of Mister Earl Winsor by Mary Ann Buffington for the Missionary Sources Collection of Wheaton College. This interview took place at three thirty nine...
BUFFINGTON: ...East Jefferson Avenue, Wheaton, Illinois, on November 6th at 3:07. [pauses] p.m. Part two, I guess you could call it. [laughs]
BUFFINGTON: Since last time I didn't really ask you about your background,...
BUFFINGTON: ...why don't we start with that. You didn't...I didn't really ask you when you were born or where you were born.
WINSOR: Well, I was born in Boston, Massachusetts in 1897, which goes back a bit.
BUFFINGTON: A little ways.
WINSOR: My heritage is New England and on both my father's and mother's side goes back to the...the Pilgrim days, so its New England, British New England. [chuckles] Do you want...what more do you want?
BUFFINGTON: Well, I....
WINSOR: You want up to...?
BUFFINGTON: Well, you had some sisters, I know.
BUFFINGTON: How many children were in your family?
WINSOR: My father was a Boston businessman. He was in the towboat business during his active days, although he had retired before he was married to my mother and had kind of lessened after that. So he was in my youth as a presence much more than the average child with parents whose father was off to work daily. We lived in New England, Massachusetts until I was through high school and then through the college at Worcester Tech.
BUFFINGTON: Were you the oldest?
BUFFINGTON: Were you the oldest?
WINSOR: No, the next...second oldest. I had an older sister. You remember last month...last week I mentioned her as having been instrumental in my coming to Wheaton.
BUFFINGTON: Right. And what was her name?
WINSOR: Her name is Aimee. There were two...three others: Dora, who's upstairs and Rachel and Alice. Alice is upstairs too. Alice is the only single one. She stayed here with mother. We mentioned her....
BUFFINGTON: Right, right. Well, I'm sure then as a New England background...what sort of church affiliation did you have while you were in New England?
WINSOR: We had a rather...an unusual experience as children. Our mother and father were Christians and their....during...during most of our childhood we lived in a little town called Westboro, which is in...W-E-S-T-B-O-R-O...which is in eastern Massachusetts near...between Boston and Worcester and they were members of a... (Didn't we talk about this last week?)
BUFFINGTON: I don't think so. We didn't really talk about it.
WINSOR: ...members of a evangelical Congregational church in town, which was more Unitarian than...than anything else. And so, when I was about junior age, they ceased going to church, but maintained a church and Sunday school in their own home for us the family as long as my father was able, which was when I was in...in college. Then he passed away. So we had church and Sunday school experience, but it wasn't the usual one. We were living in the outskirts of this town and had our normal, neighborhood relationships with families round about, New England families, but did not have the experiences that one would have if one attended a church. [unclear] the normal church relationships. And so that only came after we moved to Wheaton and attended church. It was a very different experience, but it was a heritage for me that I cherish because it showed they were...they were definite in their belief and willing to be different as well. In fact, my father before...while we were still going to church, (we lived a mile and a half out of town and rather than use the public transportation, which went right by the house) we walked to church as a family for a year and a half...for a mile and a half regularly and sometimes got to church before the people living next door did.
WINSOR: [laughs] We did that summer and winter. Two...two baby carriages in the summertime and two sleds...or a couple sleds...a couple of sleds in the wintertime. A long time ago [?]. On the street or on the...on the car track in the winter because they kept it plowed.
BUFFINGTON: [laughs] You'd get by.[?]
WINSOR: They had...they were able to maintain a certain amount of Christian fellowship through membership...through attending a...what they called a branch of the Christian and Missionary Alliance in Worcester, which was twelve miles away. And the Interurban [trolley car] went right by the house too. And they...so they had that fellowship because the branch's meetings were week times...weekdays. At least we never got to them on Sundays. My father didn't believe in using the public transportation then. As perhaps you know that was...was an attitude of Doctor [Charles] Blanchard of the College. Did you ever hear that?
BUFFINGTON: I was not aware of that.
WINSOR: He had...he would go to Moody [Memorial Church in Chicago] for a preaching assignment on Sunday but he' d go into a hotel for overnights. So we...we were isolated from the normal...some of the normal social relationships that one would have had. Not that we were without social opportunities, because we had...we had our neighborhood friends and so on, but the things that gave an opportunity for developing the social graces, I think [laughs] I felt the lack of it for years. And I...I'm sure that the example that was what [unclear].
BUFFINGTON: When did you make your decision to make your public confession of faith and make your decision to follow Christ? Was it in your youth?
WINSOR: I...I can't pinpoint that. I remember clearly in my youth (and it was probably in my early high school days) being concerned about...in the matter of my spiritual life and talking to my parents about it. They were earnest Christians both, but not, [pauses] I think it might...it is fair to say, not well instructed in how to help me. And I was told and I feel that their effort to be of help was what resulted in my father taking me to a...a summer conference of the Christian and Missionary Alliance up in Old Orchard, Maine, where I first made a public response to a call and accepted the Lord, as far as I know, then. But I got no help on following up with understanding how to nurture it and so on, so that it was kind of a...it's not that we...not that I wasn't exposed, because my father collected...conducted church, read sermons, my mother had Sunday school classes, but we...I had no...no personal counselor to help me along that line. When we came to Wheaton (I had been through college) I joined the church on profession of faith and have lived by my faith since then, on that basis. But I can't pinpoint other than at that meeting. I remember saying afterwards, "But Dad, I don't feel any different." He said what I suppose in one way was correct: "Well, you don't need to feel different."
BUFFINGTON: Great. What the...well, why...?
WINSOR: [laughs] I haven't told many people that, all of that.
BUFFINGTON: Well, thank you for telling that, for sharing that. [?] Why did you all move to Wheaton, other than the fact that your sister was here?
WINSOR: Why did we move? Well, my father died when I was a freshman...no, when I was junior, early in the...at the...just starting the junior year of my college year...my college at Worcester where I went to Worcester Tech, as I said. My older sister had already started to go to Wheaton...had been to Wheaton and was a student then, but in the beginning of my freshman year, my father had a stroke and was incapacitated in bed from then until he died two years later. It was then...Mother stayed then there until I was through college and then we moved. And so she moved because by that time the two next sisters were out here and so there were three out here. Alice the youngest was a...ready to be a coll...high school senior and they had no particular ties to keep them there. Mother was prepared to move here and doubtless enter into the college life of the fellowship, which she knew she'd find here. And this was what happened to a lot of families. They became faced with a....
BUFFINGTON: What did your mother do as you grew up? Was she a professional or...
WINSOR: No, no.
BUFFINGTON: ...did she stay home?
WINSOR: She was a mother.
WINSOR: She was a homemaker in days when that was the thing. [Chuckles] No, she was a homemaker. Of course, in those days, we...she made her own bread. She did a lot of things that one has...had to do when there was no supermarts with almost everything available in finished form.
BUFFINGTON: Right. Right. So....
WINSOR: She was a homemaker. [A sentence or two follows that is too faint to hear] So we moved out here in 1919 and this has been our center ever since.
BUFFINGTON: So when you moved in 1919, was that...that was when you entered Wheaton also, right?
WINSOR: That's right, that's when I had my year at Wheaton, 19...1920...
WINSOR: ...followed by my teaching here.
BUFFINGTON: ...what sort of things do you remember about Wheaton as you first entered the...?
WINSOR: Well, one thing is...which struck all of us was that we heard talk about the College hill and we couldn't find it. This little eminence here, especially approaching it from this side or this side. It never impressed us with being a hill. We'd looked out from our home on a ridge of hills and in the very distance we could see Mount Washington[?], the highest point...well, not the highest point in Massachusetts, but a known eminence in that area. And we were much more used to ups and downs, irregular topography, that was the thing. Of course, Wheaton then was a matter of five thousand people, and...as contrasted to the forty thousand at the present. We...we found some difference in...in speech, in pronunciation, accents and so on, were...were teased for our New England accent. We found the College then, of course, just the four buildings: the main building without the east wing, [Blanchard Hall] which is all there was, Williston, the...the oldest of the three gyms, the one right behind that building, which has "gymnasium" still on it, if you notice.
BUFFINGTON: Oh, right. [?]
WINSOR: And...and what was the Academy building [a Christian secondary school] which is now the grad building [Schell Hall, previously Buswell Hall]. Those were the four. That's all the campus consisted of. Plus the...the Lemon. Did you ever hear of the Lemon?
BUFFINGTON: No, I don't believe I did.
WINSOR: The Lemon was a building that housed the telescope. It was a...oh, just a matter of fifteen feet in diameter. I can't remember if it was actually circular or octagonal or something like that. But it had a...a dome on it that held a twelve inch (something like that) and was located across the entrance...across the east gate entrance from...from Williston toward the...toward the slope. It was called the Lemon because it was yellow on the outside. [laughs]
WINSOR: We had...the College did have two houses that I know of. There was a building approximately where the Health Center is that was called Wayside Inn and was used as a dormitory and at one time (I don't think it was used that way when we arrived) as a sort of an eating club for boys. And then at the foot of the campus in front of where the Graham Center is, there was a building that's called the Missionary Home, which was another big building...big residence used for...for housing students, some...some mks [missionary kids] but I don't think it was exclusive. But I think...I think that's all there was then for housing. The campus...the front campus was not too different from it is now...what it is now, except that it had a double row of big elms down the walk that goes from the main entrance diagonally toward town, you know, that one there. And that didn't have quite as many of the other trees that have been planted [unclear] under the direction in part of the biology department. [Unclear], I think, was a doctor at the time, [unclear], was...had been the main architect in providing a good variety of buil...trees for the campus [?]. There was also down on the southeast curve of...of Seminary [Avenue] was a row of...of [unclear] standing up as a sort of hedge which I am told was a remnant of what had been a remnant of what had been the whole length of Seminary Street entrance to campus, but the whole campus was not in such good shape then. They only brought in a mowing machine once or twice a year.
WINSOR: And a reaper that harvested the hay. [unclear] But it wasn't quite as beautiful as...although the slope was there, that hill you know. [laughs]
BUFFINGTON: [laughs] Oh. Who were some of the personnel who you remember? Who was president at that time?
WINSOR: Who was president? It was...that was during the years of Doctor Blanchard, Charles Blanchard, the second president. He...he had been president since the 1880s [?] when his father died and died in 1925...the fall of 1925, while I was still in Wheaton but just before...just before I left...just before I left for Africa. He...the...he died preparing to conduct a funeral service in what was the new chapel, Pierce, which had been put up in...in '24-'25. There are some things to say about that that I can say...
WINSOR: ...now or later.
BUFFINGTON: Go ahead and talk about them.
WINSOR: That...that was a joint effort of the College Church and the...the college. For many years and I don't know just...I guess from the beginning of the College Church, which was formed in a...under another name in 19...1860, then took its present name in [pauses] 18...186...1879...1877, I think it was. Or '8. I'm not positive. But until that time the...the College Church had met in what was the college chapel, which is where...which was all the third floor of the main section of Blanchard. If you know where this large assembly room is...
WINSOR: ...on the.... That extended right on through to the north side. When Blan...when Pierce was built, that was reconverted. But it did serve as the chapel for the...the grad school when it was made, but it was also used as a classroom, I guess, and so.... But during our time in those early days the College Church met there. But they...they...they...they began to outgrow...and the College outgrew that room and they a felt a need for a larger chapel. So they went...went together on a project to...to build Pierce. For a few years beforehand, I don't remember just when they got started, but they began to collect funds. And then on Labor Day in 6...in '24 (if I said '64 sometime, I was wrong) in '24, we had a...a bee[?] to start digging the basement and we had not the present day equivalent but one pair of horses and with a hand scope they dragged behind them and wheelbarrows and shovels. And we started...the men started the basement. We didn't make a tremendous impression...
WINSOR: ...but we had a beginning. And it was a spirit-generating thing. And there developed a little bit of rivalry as to who might take...take the first shovelful and old professor [Perry] Straw told us early when we began to gather at the appointed time, which was after breakfast in the morning, that he'd taken the first shovelful.. He'd come up at five o'clock. And then a young girl, maybe in her...twelve, ten, twelve, something like that, said, "Oh no! I was up here at two-thirty and I dug a shovelful!"
WINSOR: So it was Esther Brooks, who...whose father had been a pas...pastor of the church earlier who actually took the first shovelful. But we did that and then construction went on and constr...a contractor. And then a year later to the day, on the next Labor Day, we had another work day and landscaped around the building and smoothed off things and I think a little painting was done. At least we cleared up around the building, which was another spirit-generating thing. And there was a joint agreement as to the terms on which the building would be used and how that if the time came when the College felt they needed it exclusively, they would reimburse for the church for its share in the investment and that time did come, so in '35 the church did build its first...the first part of...the sanctuary part of its present building and so since its been the College's exclusively. It wasn't given its present name (for...Linda Childs Pierce Chapel) until later, I don't know when. I was away but a gentleman gave it in memory of his wife and I think it was the time when balconies were put in, at least the side balconies were put in and he made...his gift may have financed that. I...I don't remember basically, but we had that interesting dig [?]. You asked about Doctor Blanchard. There were a lot of things that could be said about him. Of course, he was...he was the patriarch of the place. Did you interview...you've seen pictures of him, I sure.
BUFFINGTON: Right, I've seen pictures.
WINSOR: He was a tall...must have been a man of six foot two, maybe, in his prime. In age we settle a bit, and I'm sure he wasn't...but he was still a tall man. Never came and got to be a...never was a fat man. He...he had kept in good physical shape and was the patriarch of the place. The fund raiser as well as the president. He taught a class regularly. He taught a class which was required of all seniors. One third...the first third of the year, was a class in psychology. The next third was a class in ethics and the last third was a class in theism, which was something that he felt that all students should have. Of course, folks took it. [laughs]
WINSOR: In those days when I was...I was...I was a member of the faculty from '25 to...from '20 to '25. There were a few members of the faculty, of course, as I think I mentioned the other day.... My memory is that when I was graduated, the student body...College student body was between a hundred and fifty and two hundred, somewhere in that area as I remember. Nearer the hundred and fifty than the two hundred, I believe. And so there wasn't so many required. But there were...it was a sort of an interesting situation in a way. There was...Doctor Blanchard was a man in his seventies, I suppose. We had Doctor Straw, who I mentioned, who by the time he completed his career had taught well over forty years, and Doctor Dow, Doctor Elsie Dow, who was in the same...I think they were classmates at Wheaton originally. At least they were close together, back in the '80s. And there was a professor ("Greek" Smith, we called him, George [H.] Smith, because there was another Smith in the beginning), Dr. Greek Smith, who finished forty or more years. I think all three of these finished fifty years eventually and I was in the middle for some of them. And we had Miss [Harriet] Blaine, who taught French and Latin, B-L-A-I-N-E. And she was not quite as old, but was of the slightly older set. [laughs]
WINSOR: We had a professor of his... (not a professor, we called him "professor History") [E. W.] Smith who was teaching in 1919, but he was the one who died at Christmas time and who ultimately I replaced. We had Professor [Carl M] Garlough,
G-A-R-L-O-U-G-H, who was ten or fifteen years younger than these others. I'm just guessing, I don't know, but he was...he was a middle aged man of the time. He was registrar and professor of math. And we had professor [William] Rice, professor of education, also director of the Academy, who was also somewhat like that too. A little bit younger than this sen...very senior group. And then very much younger than they were Miss [Edith C.] Torrey, a daughter of R. A. Torrey. Do you know that name?
WINSOR: Famous evangelist and leader...Christian leader. She taught Bible. And a little bit later Miss [Helen] Spaulding S-P-A-U-L-D-I-N-G came along and taught Bible. And there was a young chemistry professor who was about my vintage, possibly two or three years older than I. Oh, and I...I forgot Professor [Henry] Farnham,
F-A-R-N-H-A-M, who was professor...he would have been in the lower group, professor of physics. We had a...those were the three groups pretty much covered the faculty, now. There was this very [door slams] senior group, there was a middle group, then [laughs] two or three of us who were very much the juniors. And it was an experience to sit in faculty meetings with them and they had regular fac...faculty meetings. And the...the assigned jobs that I sometimes felt were a little bit out of my range. After I had been teaching two or three years, I was made chairman of the...the discipline committee for the students and it wasn't exactly a happy thing. We had cases that I guess come up in every...every college faculty where a student has to be dealt with. But the deans did take care of most of it. I remember once having to tell the mother of one girl that she would have to leave. This mother was the wife of a prominent Christian leader in the East [eastern United States], [laughs]...
WINSOR: ...which was not exactly an easy experience but I got used to it. It was interesting. Professor Smith was as ardent an athletic rooter for the athletic teams as anybody, though he was the great man and might not have been thought likely as an athletic...athletic rooter, but he was. And so.... There was one other nominally...nominal member of the faculty. She was...that was Doctor Blanchard's wife [Doctor Frances Carothers Blanchard] who was an MD. And she served as might be necessary for giving physicals and so on and I guess attended to the students to some extent. Not totally...she didn't do...do the medical work exclusive. Some of the town doctors were called. So we had interesting times in...in faculty meetings. It was during that time that Doctor Rice, the education man, was doing his best to try to upgrade...try to see that the College organization and offerings could be upgraded so as to get accreditation. First in those days, I guess, would have been with the state university. And a measure of accreditation was obtained, although I don't know that it was...went quite as far as...as Wheaton has gotten since then. Of course, immediately after that the events I referred to, immediately after '25, Doctor Blanchard was gone and Doctor [James Oliver] Buswell first cam...came in. He came in as president and it was during his time that full accreditation came. Doctor Rice was gone by then. Another man had taken over his department or branch of education. Doctor...a man named Doctor Dwight was here one or two years and then Doctor [Hervin U.] Roop, R-O-O-P, served until I was gone. I'm not sure just how long after that he was there. They were both older men. And there were other changes in the...in the staff, in chemistry in particular. We had one young man...younger man, possibly of...two or three years older than I who came, very well liked and fit in very well, but he had to leave because his...some nephews and nieces of his were left, I think, parentless by a...a tornado in Lorain, Ohio and it was no...well, then...but it took the parents of this family of his and he went...he was not married and he went home to be with his nieces and nephews. I think his mother shared with him something with him. So he had to leave and was succeeded by Miss [Edith A.] Smith, who was chemistry professor until the end of my time, I think. I'm not quite sure how long that she was went on.
BUFFINGTON: Do you have any particular remembrances or reminiscences about President Blanchard? Any...?
WINSOR: Well, even at his age, in those days, he was game enough to go out to...to old Lawson, which was the athletic field in that day, out here where the baseball is played, and take a brief share in the...in the faculty-student baseball game. I used to have a picture of him at bat. So he was game, he was. And was active until [pauses]...really until the very end. I don't remember his having any disabling diseases. He had a stroke or heart attack, something of that nature, and he went like that [snaps fingers] preparing one Sunday morning, preparing for a funeral in the afternoon. It so happened that was in the fall, just after the chapel had been put into use. It had been planned to be ready for September and it wasn't. It had delays in construction. So my fiance and I set our...our date [wedding date] for a November date, expecting to have the building ready and they had to work nights to get the pews in.
BUFFINGTON: Oh no! [laughs]
WINSOR: But that...that was...we got married November 5th and in...between then and the end of November, or really before Christmas [December 20, 1925].... Oh, I omitted Professor [Herman Augustus] Fischer...Professor Fischer, who was the father of the longtime chairman of the board of trustees, Herman Fischer (also Herman Fischer), that...he was professor...had been professor of math too and German, I believe. He was of the old German stock in this area. There were a lot of them around and he had died and his funeral had been conducted. Doctor Blanchard had a share in that. And then a young woman [Eva Lundgate] died who had been in college...had a college connection. Her family were members at College Church. She had been an evangelist and was just a relatively young woman. I don't remember [unclear] at the time. But she died and was to be buried a certain Sunday and Doctor Blanchard was preparing to conduct that funeral. While his family was at church on Sunday morning, he stayed home and passed away right there. Now, I have made there statements as though they were facts. I'm not sure whether she was buried first and Doctor...it was Doctor...Professor Fischer's funeral that he was preparing for or the reverse. It was one of those. If you ever need, you can have that checked without difficulty, I'm sure.
WINSOR: But that was...that was the last I remember, of course, of Doctor Blanchard. In January or February, Doctor Buswell was invited to come for the second semester week of special meetings, which have been held from...from then and I don't know how much before then. And he was a young pastor at the time in Brooklyn, although his origin had been in the Twin Cities [St. Paul and Minneapolis, MN] but he was a pastor in Brooklyn, I think, and I believe also connected with the National Bible Institute as a part time teacher, in New York City. He...he came and made such an impression on some of the trustees that he was...he was chosen to come as president, at that time the youngest college president in the country, just ear...in his early...about thirty I think. But he...he was a strong preacher, a theologian and it was under him that the initial growth, the rapid growth...not who...not wholly to be attributed...not wholly attributable to his influence, because it was in that post First World War time, when that happened rather widely. He was president from '26 to '40 and during that time the College grew and the extra wing of Blanchard was built. He... where was...oh yes, the...the Student Center was built then [actually authorized in 1943 and completed in 1951]. I was going to say I...there was a lot of building then, during his time, but I don't think there was. There was more in Doctor Edman's time, because.... Oh, wait a minute. The...no, the Coray Gym, as it's called now, was built during the war and after that Doctor Edman and the library was built during Doctor Edman's time, and the...and the Edman Chap...Chapel and Centennial Gym were all built during Doctor Edman's time. And the music building[the Conservatory]. Those were all in Doctor Edman's time. And I guess too the...the Wheaton Hilton. Do you know what that is?
BUFFINGTON: I've not heard of that. [laughs]
WINSOR: Well, Fischer Dormitory.
BUFFINGTON: Oh. [laughs] I should have known.
WINSOR: Some folks who...that was built while I was on the field and some folks say...they had a big missionary conference here after that was built and delegates from all over the world met there and were housed there [Congress on the Church's Worldwide Mission, 1966] and some of them, I think, gave it the name "the Hilton" because it was the first air-conditioned building of its sort and it was..it was nice. Not that it's...not that it's fantastic at all, but it was a bit nicer than Williston. But by...that too under Doctor Blanchard [sic]. The...the double dorm over here was built and of course the [pauses]...the Breyer laboratory was built under Doctor Edman. I think the other one (the Science hall or the Science building [now called Armerding Science Hall]) came later under Doctor..the present president [Doctor Hudson Taylor Armerding]. So that so happened that Breyer was being built during a...a.... I had the privilege...(we lived in a house right from there then) and I had the privilege of watching it go up, which to me is an interesting thing, construction.
BUFFINGTON: Doctor Edman was president the second time you came to teach at Wheaton?
WINSOR: Yes, Doctor Edman had taken over from Doctor Buswell in...in 1940 and I came in '42 and taught till 1949.
BUFFINGTON: And you...were you teaching in the History department?
WINSOR: No, I...this may shock you, but I taught mathematics.
BUFFINGTON: Going back to your earlier days. [laughs]
WINSOR: Going back to my college days, yes. Yes, you made the connection very well.
BUFFINGTON: There were other professors in your department at that time.
BUFFINGTON: I'm sure they changed from....
WINSOR: Yes, old Doctor [Hawley Otis] Taylor had...who retired while I was here, was the head of the department. It was the department of math and physics at the time and we had two lady math teachers, Doctor Boyce, B-O-Y-C-E, who still lives here in town, and Doctor Angeline Brandt, B-R-A-N-D-T, were the math teachers. I just filled in for some of the other math. And they were...they were both top notch teachers. Those two ladies were considered the top. I'm sure that Doctor [Frazer] Browning, who's head of the department [in 1978], was one of their pupils. And when I started, I can't remember anyone else being in the department, but very shortly, a Doctor Paul Martin because the head of the department when Doctor Taylor retired. A very fine man, who carried on for a number of years until health caused him to...well, he went out and...to Denver for health reasons. He's in commercial work out there for [unclear].
WINSOR: But we had a young fellow as a lab assistant who now is the head of the Physics department here, Jim Kraakevik. Do you know that name?
BUFFINGTON: The name in not familiar, but I guess....
WINSOR: K-R-A-A-K-E-V-I-K. He's as good a violinist as he is a physicist. The other way around too. [?] He was an excellent...his...he used to go to play for Moody [Bible Institute of Chicago]. In fact, his father was employed at Moody in some non-teaching capacity and the boy grew up in...there. He was our lab assistant for three...for a couple years and went on for his advanced training. We had another man come in...who came for a short time and I've been trying since last week to recall his name and can't.
WINSOR: He didn't stay here too long. He went on to other college teaching in another Christian college. I think he went to Westmont, I'm not positive.
BUFFINGTON: What type students did you have? Did you notice a change between the students of your first tenure here...
WINSOR: Well, of course.
BUFFINGTON: ...and student of your second tenure?
WINSOR: When...when I was first teaching, they were contemporaries. I had my three sisters in one of my classes. I had a man who became a brother-in-law. I had Mister Ed Coray. Do you know that name, at Alumni?
BUFFINGTON: I've met him, yes.
WINSOR: Well, he was with us, too. He graduated in '23. He was a freshman when I was a senior. And Doctor [Enock] Dyrness, who was registrar of the College for forty years, or something like that, was a student. In fact, most of the folks at Wheaton College in the '23s and '4s came through...got to me one way or another. But when we came back in 1940...of course, I was a little further removed from things then. And we...we noticed one thing. We had...in the war years, we had for one year a unit of the ASTC, which was the Army Student Training Corp. I have to hesitate because I was a member of the SATC at Tech, which was the Student Army Training Corp. And this was the Army Student Training Corp. But we had a contingent of them here for...as part of one year. And some of us were concerned largely with them. Because they were...had been put through some service testing and were affirmed to be...to have capabilities to prepare them for...for engineering training, so we had to give some training in math and I...I had them in math and in engineering drawing, whereas others had them in other things. We had them on the...on the campus. They were a contingent fed by themselves in the basement of Pierce Chapel and housed by themselves and largely kept to themselves. By...of course in effect [?] they were kept pretty busy and didn't have much time to socialize. There were a few cases where permanent connections were made.
WINSOR: I know one couple that came back to see me here since I've been home [pauses] and lives downstate. The young man was one who attended a Sunday school class that I had for students of that sort, for Army students during that time. But not too many of them were Wheaton type of students and they liked to get away when possible, downtown, away from discipline and control. But we at Wheaton also lost a lot of our young men by service, military service. One thing we noticed was their quality when they came back, after service. They came from tours [of duty], they came back motivated and they came back to become campus leaders, the most healthy type of leaders, which for two or three years made a big impression on...on the campus life, for some of them became real spiritual campus leaders. And that was good for the College.
BUFFINGTON: So you recall that as being one of the spiritual revivals on the campus.
BUFFINGTON: Would...were there others?
WINSOR: No, not...not that time.
WINSOR: Yes, I was in one in '43 or '4, when we had a time [February 10-11, 1943] that you've heard about. There was a certain...Pastor [Harold P.] Warren from Flint, Michigan was the speaker at that time and that morning in chapel there came a spirit of conviction among the students and we had a continuous service that went on for hours and hours. But there were students standing all over chapel waiting for a chance to make their confession of some sort, make a statement of some sort. And that was a...a very healthy time. It was publicized. It wasn't the first time like that. I remember one time  in the '30s when I was not here but when a similar occurrence came, developing during a...(as I have heard of it) developing during a...during similar prayer and expression meetings when one student who later became a national leader in certain missionary areas asked for permission to say something and...and expressed his conviction and need and so on and that was followed by another. The...if I remember correctly, the pastor at that time was Pastor [Robert Crawford] McQuilkin from Columbia [Bible College in Columbia. McQuilkin was founder and president of the school], but I wasn't here.
BUFFINGTON: Do you remember the name of the student?
WINSOR: Yes, it was a Hillis, one of the Hillis brothers. I don't know which. There were two brothers, Don and Dave, I think. I'm not sure. But it was one of those who took the initiative that first time. But I don't remember the others. [?]
BUFFINGTON: But those two events...were there other times when you felt a particular spirit?
WINSOR: Well, not...not outstanding ones such as these two, because this, as I remember the one that I passed through, the meeting was actually continuous for hours and went on into the night and through the night. I believe it was through the night. Doctor Edman stood there most of the time and just presided and kept decent order, but I didn't stay all through the night, but some did. And it made a difference, no doubt about that. The Chicago Tribune reported it and it was published in Time I think [unclear]. And not wholly unsympathetically. But sometimes the public press doesn't comment on such things with full understanding. [chuckles]
BUFFINGTON: Who were some of the people who you were impressed by when you were here? Leaders or...?
WINSOR: Students you mean or...?
BUFFINGTON: ...or students, both?
WINSOR: Well, we had...we had a succession of speakers who came. As you know, that still happens and speakers come. And we got to hear some of the giants of...of the '20s. For instance, for instance one them I remember [pauses].... I can't remember his name. It was...I'll...I'll get his name in a minute. He was pastor of the First Baptist Church in Minneapolis [William Bell Riley] and another giant, much like Doctor Blanchard. Giant in...in stature, with a great sho...shi...shoc...shock of white hair. And a man with a deep voice and who...who was a deeply spiritual speaker. I know...I'm sure to get his name in a minute. And he...he was here more than once for special meetings. Another man I remember was Doctor Paul Rees. He was here in the '40s. You know that name, do you?
BUFFINGTON: Quite right. [?]
WINSOR: He has...he has latterly been connected with Billy Graham and is in his organization, I think. He was in church here a Sunday or two ago. [unclear] On the day that Doctor...Doctor...[laughs, long pause] Dave [Stephen?] [pauses] Olford! Doctor Olford spoke in church...in our church two weeks ago, I think, and Doctor Paul Rees was there in the evening and invited people to come to Christ. [?] But he, at that time, was one who came and they...sort of an individual style and always with worthwhile things for us to hear. I remember way back in the '20s when one of the commencement speakers (this speaker was a man from a seminary in Pittsburgh) whose sermon was based on the verse in Psalms, "I have stuck onto Thy testimonies...stuck onto Thy precepts." One of those two. And he was an archeologist who insisted on the possibility of sticking on the pret...the precepts, even though some archaeologists would raise questions and introduce doubts and so on, but he insisted that the arch....archeology gave no grounds for that. I remember Doc...an archeologist who came down in the '40s, Doctor [William] Albright from Johns Hopkins [University in Maryland], who at the request of one of the archaeologists on the faculty came out. He had been lecturing at the University of Chicago and came out to give more than one lecture. One was something having to do with Greek and another one was a general lecture about archeology and so on. And I remember his amazement at the number that came to hear his lecture on Greek. He said he'd gave the same thing in the Chicago...in University of Chicago and had just a handful and they had to move from one room that had been projected to a larger room because so many came to hear. But he also...I remember one thing that he also...also spoke about to say that our current Scripture, he said, has no problems in it that archeological prob...that archeology might help to solve that are basic to doctrine. He said, "There are a thousand or more places in Scripture where we have some question about the exact meaning of the text," you know, what the text implies, "but none of those applies to the basic doctrines," which has been a great inspiration to me for these many years. He was one of the arch...archeological leaders of the world and not, I think, wholly...felt to be wholly sound, but Doctor [Joseph W.] Free who was our archeologist wanted to have him because he was frank enough to say such things and an expert. Doctor Free was an archeologist. Not the one who founded the archeology department but he was professor of archeology himself for quite a long while and himself conducted diggings in...in Palestine, a place called Dothan. You remember that name in connection with Jac...Joseph and his brothers, where he went to Dothan to hunt for them. Dr Straw was a craggy old man. Do you know...do you get any impression from my using the word "craggy"?
BUFFINGTON: Not much.
WINSOR: Kind of solemn [?], terse, and definite and yet he was very much an individual. He connected his classes and his students in a circle so he faced all of us. He was...moveable [?] chairs in his room.
WINSOR: He didn't want them always so that some could hide behind others. He could see them all. He...he taught English and logic and Bible and had prepared his own syllabi for the Bible courses. [unclear] They're no longer used. [laughs]
WINSOR: They haven't been [?] for a long time. But they were useful. He had...was the secretary of the faculty for many years and his succinct way of keeping notes, accurate I'm sure, and effective [?]. He taught rhetoric and had a...a textbook and expected his students to master the assignment well enough to come in and write the outline of the assignment on the board from their head [?]. And he would have them all do it on occasion. He was [pauses]...he was so very effort [?]...very practical man. He spoke in chapel and took his turn. In those days a number of the faculty people took chapel...took [spoke in] chapel regularly, as well as Doctor Blanchard. And I remember him saying, "There's no excuse for a cold. If you have a cold, you're either ignorant or careless." That would not fit in with some knowledge [?] of medicine, I suppose. It was careless, I suppose, for then you're exposing yourself to other people. That was his thought.[?] And Doctor Dow was another individual. Her...her specialty was English literature, in which she was an expert, could quote Shakespeare and others by reams and reams. She was a real teacher and she knew how to correlate her English literature teaching with life and with Christian life, and did it very, very effectively. She was a heavy woman of middle-sized height, the kind that you could designate as a dowager. I knew her of course in my older years, but in my one...in my one year as a student, I had a course with her in nineteenth century poets for which engineering had not given me much preparation...
WINSOR: ...and it took me some time to get oriented. First semester [laughs] I kind of felt that way. And I felt...I got the feeling that if I ventured an opinion in the class, well she would take that as a basis for a ten-minute exposition of why I was totally wrong. [chuckles]
WINSOR: Later, when we were teaching together, I told her that and she exclaimed, "Oh, Mister Winsor!" But we became good friends. In fact, I'm not so sure but what she may have been one of the instigators for my being asked to...to teach. She was an expert in English and American literature but an able woman and on necessity would substitute for Doctor Blanchard in his senior...senior course or when this history teacher died, she took over some of the history courses, as well. And I never tested it out, but I imagine that she and others who did that sort of thing must have assumed some overload, but they weren't scared of that in those days. [unclear] [pauses] There was a man who came here to teach archeo...that's right, archeology, [unclear] a certain Doctor Alexander Grigolia, a native of Russia (somewhere in Russia, I don't know quite where) and a man who had earned two doctors degrees in Germany and I'm not sure but one in this country and was an enthusiast for archeology. In fact he...he wanted to make it sort of the [emphasizes the]...
WINSOR: ...and was disappointed that it had to take its place amongst the others. But he was...he was an enthusiast and really got...gave a good start to the department before he went away, although he went on as the teacher of the same subject in Pennsylvania [unclear]. But he was very much an individual. I remember in faculty meeting his proposing some of his thoughts on developments and so on. [pauses] One other person who was on faculty...on campus.... The thing of it is I should not have forgotten her. While she was not officially a faculty member, she was an important member.... She was Doctor Blanchard's daughter, Miss Julia Blanchard, who was librarian and as well as that ran the College bookstore...bookstore, refreshments [?], candies [?] and so on. But she was a real individual. She was a woman in her fifties or somewhere in upper middle age and very, very capable...and who also could substitute for her father in classes that he had. And she in the time that we...I was in school had as a library room 201, in the main building [Blanchard Hall], on the second floor in the east building...east room...
BUFFINGTON: Uh huh.
WINSOR: ...east of the central chapel area.
BUFFINGTON: Uh huh.
WINSOR: That was the...that was the area with stacks and reading room. But in addition, in the area where the President's office is now, there was an area with auxiliary stacks actually fenced off from the passageway (which ran on to the east and west then) by chicken wire [chuckles] from floor to ceiling. And across from this passageway was Miss Blanchard's office and book...and bookstore. But she was a...a fixture here and a fruitful one, an effective one for a long while. I think she must have had almost all her career here after some initial teaching elsewhere. [?]
BUFFINGTON: Which people did...did you know on campus that seemed to wield the most power and influence on campus?
BUFFINGTON: Faculty, administration.
WINSOR: Well, in those days Doctor Blanchard was...was the head of the school. Dr. Rice was an influential go-getter and significant in his...in his work toward getting accreditation for the school. Most student body people...there was one...one man named Howard.... [pauses] I shouldn't have mentioned him.
WINSOR: [Pauses] I don't remember students too well, as to their influence at that particular time. I really can't say they were...in the days of the '40s, there were some such, but I can't...I would have difficulty draw...drawing their names out. [coughs] I remember one fellow who came...a serviceman who came back who had lost a hand...had an artificial hand, who became a spiritual leader on...on the campus and...(that was after the war) and.... I continue to confuse a little bit some of those and some I have known since then, like Dave Howard (you know Dave Howard) who has been...who has worked first in Latin America for years and...but more recently has been with Inter-Varsity and who has organized a couple of the Urbana conferences [the triennial missionary conferences held at the very end of the year in Urbana, Illinois] and now is working as sort of the organizer of the next Lausanne Conference on evangelism which is be held in...in Bangkok or somewhere in that area in Thailand. [The meeting was Consultation on World Evangelization, held in Pattaya, Thailand in 1982.] Supposed to be next...next year some time. But he has become a world leader in the missions area and his work out of college was as a fiel...as a representative of the...(it was while he was in college) [pauses] a leader in this...a movement of students to distribute New Testaments. They would go to a big football game in Chicago and mingle with the crowd afterwards and pass out the New Testaments, as a means of distributing them. He was one of those who...they had a campus organization for organizing that sort of thing and he...he...I think he was...he was a local representative of the Student's Mission Fellowship, SMF, which now has been absorbed by Inter-Varsity and I think still has a [unclear]. I think he was for a year or so the representative on campus. And then there other fellows, but I don't recall much more than that. One other name. You know this fellow's name very well because he is connected with the current mission project [?] in Italy and he was a student leader, but I...[pauses]. You better go on.
BUFFINGTON: Okay. [laughs] Were you involved in any of the extracurricular activities around here?
WINSOR: Well, when I was...in the '20s...(of course I was just young then)...
WINSOR: ...I sang in the gl...Men's Glee Club. We took trips in those days (as I've told some of them) as far away as Elmhurst or Elgin. We didn't go to the west coast...
WINSOR: ...or the east coast or [unclear]. I sang with them for a year or two. No, not...not...there wasn't too much else. I was busy with my...in my teaching here and.... I was chairman of the faculty ath...athletic committee one year and as such went to some of the...went away with some of the teams as faculty representative. I remember going out west to Mount Morris, where there's no longer a school. It was out west of DeKalb. You know the name Dekalb...
WINSOR: ...of course. And I...I went over to Naperville. We were still...we were still playing...we were then playing some of those nearby teams that we still play. Naperville was then Northwestern College rather than North Central College. That came to be confusing with Northwestern University, so they changed it over. There was...there was some responsibilities that that involved, but not...not really too many: naming a coach, who incidentally, at the end, was Coach Coray. I think he came the year I was...the last year I was here. He came the fall that I was around after leaving the college. But we had a succession of coaches. One of the first coaches while I was teaching was a classmate of mine.
BUFFINGTON: Oh. [laughs]
WINSOR: He also decided that he...he didn't do any teaching but coached. Coach Coray was one who stayed on and taught and taught for...and coached. He may have taught [unclear]. But he became a fixture and taught until...for a long while...coached a long while until he became alumni secretary and then was that for the rest of his career until his present status as an advance man. [coughs] Well, I can't remember having any great amount of share in extracurricular activity.
BUFFINGTON: All right then. [?] That was about it for all my questions of Wheaton, but I think we've just about exhausted an afternoon here.
WINSOR: We're getting on to the end of the tape. I've been watching that wind down, wind up.
BUFFINGTON: It's absolutely moving on. So maybe...
BUFFINGTON: ...we could take a break...
WINSOR: Whatever you say.
BUFFINGTON: ...'cause I believe....
END OF TAPE